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I'm a big proponent of free speech and the first amendment, but I agree with the reasonings for banning it or forcing US owners. China most definitely has thei
by andiareso 3y ago
I'm a big proponent of free speech and the first amendment, but I agree with the reasonings for banning it or forcing US owners.
China most definitely has their hands in the data that TikTok amasses and given its popularity it's not an insignificant risk to U.S. citizens. We all know how easy it is to manipulate users... aka Cambridge Analytica.
It'll be interesting to see what legal challenges come up if the bill passes the senate because that is where the real discussion will occur. I ultimately see it being reversed, but I can also see a solid framework for future bills being illuminated via the courts.
- Nesco 3y agoWhy shouldn’t Europeans do the same with US social networks then?
- richbell 3y agoEurope is concerned about the influence and data-collection of American tech companies, and would be fully justified in doing something similar.
- politician 3y agoThey should, and viewed in a certain light that is what the GPDR and DMA are trying to achieve— make room for native companies.
- bonzini 3y agoNot necessarily making room for native companies, as the Silicon Valley giants have adapted. But they enforce certain rights, for example privacy, and if US companies (not just social media) do not want to comply they are forced to leave the EU. Some newspaper websites are not visible from Europe for that reason.
- gretch 3y ago1) wouldn't blame them if they did 2) we are in this military alliance called NATO; if you are depending on each other for military help, you're not thinking about social media based threats
- farts_mckensy 3y ago[flagged]
- ThisIsMyAltAcct 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoAlso, literally the Nazis. We lost over 400,000 people helping free Europe from the last lot who tried consolidating control. Pax Americana has been one of the longest stretches of peace in Europe. Vaccines and peace…
- farts_mckensy 3y agoA lot of those Nazis went on to become part of the government of West Germany. And now Germany's in NATO. Now, their far right wing party is on the rise. The Nazis lost WWII, but fascism won.
- bhaney 3y agoThey're welcome to if they think it's worthwhile.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Why shouldn’t Europeans do the same with US social networks then? We’re not your foreign adversary? (If we are, we shouldn’t have an obligation to defend you.) This bill permits TikTok’s sale to a European owner. It just bans its ownership by a foreign adversary country.
- simpletone 3y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago[flagged]
- simpletone 3y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago[flagged]
- simpletone 3y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago[flagged]
- simpletone 3y ago[flagged]
- andiareso 3y agoI'm under the impression they already do. There are lots of data collection rules that US companies have to follow. This I see as an alternative to outright banning. I'm sure Facebook, et. al. are audited by EU agencies to make sure they are in compliance. I think the reason for the outright ban is more due to it being a Chinese product. China isn't known to be very transparent.
- almatabata 3y agoThere has been a lot of attempts with multiple iterations (see https://www.burges-salmon.com/news-and-insight/legal-updates/third-time-lucky-replacement-of-the-eu-us-privacy-shield https://www.burges-salmon.com/news-and-insight/legal-updates...). Sadly European intelligence services actually want US to spy on their citizen in order to gain access to the data legally.
- happytoexplain 3y agoIf they feel their relationship with the US is similar to the US's relationship with China in the relevant ways, then they absolutely should do the same. My understanding is that they don't feel that way, generally speaking. They do in fact impose less extreme controls on data from these platforms, that lesser extremity presumably reflecting their lesser perception of the US's use of that data as highly dangerous, as compared to the US's perception of China.
- s_dev 3y ago>My understanding is that they don't feel that way, generally speaking. US tech companies currently getting slapped around with large fines in the EU for similar infringements of privacy etc.
- thegginthesky 3y agoThat is a much lesser punishment than what the US is doing in this thread. A fine that is a small but non-insignficant percentage of annual revenue is a measured response when you want to punish bad behavior but allow businesses to still operate within the jurisdiction. Restricting business operation altogether is a response a country gives when they see the other party as extremely adversarial, which is a few orders of magnitude above what EU fines are to Big Tech. Big difference
- VoodooJuJu 3y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> EU is fundamentally an American colony that has neither the economic power nor the political power to stand up to their colonizer in such a way This is like arguing Europe was colonised by Britain when they helped the continent repel Napoleon.
- bhaney 3y ago> The EU is fundamentally an American colony Oh how the tables have turned
- Jcampuzano2 3y agoIf they feel there is a sufficient security threat posed by US based social media/apps, then I see no reason why they shouldn't. But its pretty clear that the security threat posed by US based services vs certain others is starkly different, especially since the US is generally seen as a beneficial/friendly state.
- yaky 3y agoNot Europe, but around 2015, Russia passed a law requiring foreign companies to store data on servers in the country. Then banned LinkedIn in 2016 [0], and tried to get Twitter and Facebook to comply in 2017-2019 [1]. All of which were met with ridicule from many people in the US (IIRC from article comments and reddit). IMO, somewhat similar situations - popular social media, known for data gathering, based in another country that is viewed as a geopolitical and/or ideological opponent and is often villified. 0: https://money.cnn.com/2016/11/17/technology/russia-linkedin-banned/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2016/11/17/technology/russia-linkedin-... 1: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/01/russia-tries-to-force-facebook-and-twitter-to-relocate-servers-to-russia/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/01/russia-tries-to-...
- lupusreal 3y agoThey should and I wish they would!
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoI can't imagine who would genuinely ask this- and it's suspiciously plastered in every single thread on this topic. Think hard! In which way is Europe and the US's relationship different than China and the US's relationship?
- m_rpn 3y agoWe totally should to be honest, the social network is the most harmful tech of all time, from various spectrums.
- TeaBrain 3y agoThe US legislation applying to TikTok specifically applies to companies that are considered foreign adversaries. As far as I'm aware, with the exception of possibly Russia and Belarus, the US is not considered to be a foreign adversary by European nations.
- s3p 3y agoOP wasn't arguing that.
- thomastjeffery 3y agoThe fact that Facebook and Twitter were US-owned companies did nothing to stop Cambridge Analytica.
- tqi 3y ago> We all know how easy it is to manipulate users... aka Cambridge Analytica. There is little to no evidence that CA was able to manipulate anyone other than gullible campaign managers. And frankly the idea that a list of pages someone liked could be used to create a skeleton key that turned people into Republican voters is... far-fetched.
- ProxCoques 3y agohttps://sts-news.medium.com/youre-doing-it-wrong-notes-on-criticism-and-technology-hype-18b08b4307e5 https://sts-news.medium.com/youre-doing-it-wrong-notes-on-cr...
- tqi 3y ago> We all know how easy it is to manipulate users... aka Cambridge Analytica. There is little to no evidence that CA was able to manipulate anyone other than gullible campaign managers. And frankly the idea that a list of pages someone liked could be used to create a skeleton key that turned people into Republican voters is... far-fetched. Similarly, I haven't seen anyone actually articulate what the risk from TikTok actually is. They will eavesdrop on users? App store review is supposed to catch that. Promote videos about controversial topics to users? That's cable news. See what videos you have watched or liked? Doesn't seem like a big risk...
- piva00 3y ago> Similarly, I haven't seen anyone actually articulate what the risk from TikTok is. Profiling of a large population, you put them in cohorts, and slowly shift what you show to these cohorts (based on their preferences, worldviews, etc.) to slowly nudge them into a worldview you'd like. It won't be 100% effective but it can definitely shift perceptions, if each cohort is siloed into their own reality bubbles through what you show them you can stochastically nudge them into a view you want them to hold based on their preferences. If marketing works even to the people aware of how it works, a concerted effort to use someone's profiling data telling what do they like, dislike, will definitely work on a majority of users. It's not like it will be blunt, it only has potential if you use this data to slowly shift views by using what's most effective to each cohort, with a large amount of data you can be quite precise in defining these cohorts and using different strategies/tactics for each one depending on what's most effective. Have you ever worked on anything that did profiling based on accumulated data? I've worked on a few projects back in the early 2010s and even at the time it was scary how much you could infer about your users based on some 100-200 data points collected over a period of 2-5 years. Weaponising that is not the complicated part, the data collection is.
- rusty_venture 3y agoThis is fascinating. I think this nuanced approach to shifting the perspectives and beliefs of the population of an adversarial nation is exactly the threat that is being missed by other commentators saying "what does TikTok do that's so bad anyway?" The point is that it is extremely subtle and yet very powerful...if China can convince US citizens that China deserves to rule Taiwan, for instance, the US government may find itself without the popular support or political will to take action to protect Taiwanese democracy in the event of an incursion by China.
- bluefishinit 3y ago[flagged]
- e4e5 3y ago[flagged]
- pixelatedindex 3y ago> China most definitely has their hands in the data that TikTok amasses and given its popularity it's not an insignificant risk to U.S. citizens. At least according to their website, it seems like US data does not leave US data warehouses: https://usds.tiktok.com/our-approach-to-keeping-u-s-data-secure/ https://usds.tiktok.com/our-approach-to-keeping-u-s-data-sec... I don’t know the details of course but if China wants the data there are umpteen companies who engage in data brokerage and can get the info they want. I’m not for or against this bill, but it seems like really the issue is data collection in general, which obviously the Congress has no interest in regulating.
- basiccalendar74 3y agoEven if data doesn’t leave US, we want to avoid algorithmic manipulation via TikTok feed.
- hawthornio 3y agoYeah it’s sickening how the CCP is able to push their hoof cleaning agenda on americans /s
- hellojesus 3y agoIt's not a push. It's a pull. Americans are ejecting to get this information. You have to download software, optionally allow it to send you notifications, the purposefully open and interact with it. It's rational consumption. Simple as. Edit: I now realize what /s means.
- RGamma 3y agoIt's digital crack. My mind melts when I see what's going on there (American social media too though). Surely letting someone make your populace addicted and/or stupid is problematic? In a way I consider it China's late payback for the opium wars.
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- dmos62 3y agoFunnily enough, this is why I prefer Chinese devices and apps as a Westerner living in the West. My threat vector is my local security apparatus coercing my data or my devices. Correspondingly, If I were living in China, I'd consider it safer to use Western tech. Meanwhile, I don't really care what China does with my stuff while I'm not in China, I just hope that China doesn't collude with my local authorities.
- halfmatthalfcat 3y agoIt's not what China does with your specific information but what it does with the aggregate and how it can manipulate that aggregate.
- dmos62 3y agoWhat happens to your argument if you consider that Western actors can manipulate you the same as China? Even more so, given that they have more power over you (presuming you're based in the West).
- halfmatthalfcat 3y agoMy argument isn't assuming there is no manipulation from the West and as someone who lives in the West, I'd rather to have one less avenue for manipulation.
- LunaSea 3y agoAnd this is how your fridge sent spam emails and your thermometer took part in a DDoS attack.
- dmos62 3y agoHaha, thanks for the chuckle.
- PhilipRoman 3y agoWould be interesting to know if there is any data regarding the degree of cooperation between hostile countries. If I use two VPNs from countries who hate each other am I completely untrackable?
- esoterica 3y agoIf you truly believe in the principles of free speech, no matter how offensive and evil and cynically motivated, then the logical conclusion of that belief is that adversarial foreign governments have the right to propagandize in America and to Americans. If you abandon your principles the moment someone invokes the foreign menace then you don’t really have principles. People like to think of themselves as being pro-freedom because it’s hip and cool and they are brainwashed from a young age to be proud to live in “the land of the free” but the moments you interrogate those beliefs a little they start to fall apart. It’s more of a political aesthetic than a true belief system.
- riversflow 3y agoI don’t think freedom of speech should be given to any collective. Individuals should enjoy it as an absolute right, but a corporation is a legal construct undeserving of such natural rights. A similar example, people should be able to freely assemble, corporations should not be able to form cartels.
- maximinus_thrax 3y ago> If you truly believe in the principles of free speech, no matter how offensive and evil and cynically motivated (...) No, nobody truly believes that. Whoever is trying to sell that is trying to manipulate you. We have exceptions, provisions and considerable case law which adds a lot of *) to the first amendment. The 'principles' you're referring to have never actually been a thing outside of political emotional speeches and Republican rallies. None of us have been alive when America was in a hot war to see exactly how far free speech stretches when actual lives are at stake. We're in a cold war right now and people should adjust their expectations. I'm not shedding any tears when a foreign corporation has its 'free speech' rights restricted. If it wants free speech it should move to the USA.
- andiareso 3y agoFreedom of speech isn't a blanket everything-goes. The government can impose time and place restrictions on where and when you can express yourself. So to me, getting rid of TikTok is restricting place. You can very well express yourself on other platforms if TikTok is removed from the U.S. marketplace.