7 ms·

No! If you mess with the font size, you make your page hard to read for people who adjust their font size in their browser. They set their font size very care

No! If you mess with the font size, you make your page hard to read for people who adjust their font size in their browser. They set their font size very carefully, to the smallest size they can comfortably read. Your site had better not change that. Medium.com is the worst offender. Their font size is small and they disable zooming on mobile!

stefanfisk 3y ago
This method uses the root font size as the base and therefore scales with the user's custom setting.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Karellen 3y ago
  The point of the user's custom setting is that you don't need to scale with it. The user's custom setting is the font size they want! That's why they set it. If the user wants a different root font size, they'll set it themselves.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    font size needs to scale because font size can also affect contrast, unless the user is setting custom font size per site it will not be adequate for the user to set the custom font size for all potential situations.
  - p_l 3y ago
    Unfortunately, while making a site, I can't query for "does the user set special preferences" in CSS. I use somewhat similar formula in one project to create a common baseline font size that 1) does not break with viewport size changes 2) remain legible for baseline user 3) gives good base value to scale UI elements by rem/em units. Of course it's also a project where the user does not have a chance to mess with font size anyway for the main user, but I'd reuse the formula elsewhere. Wish I could query the browser if the user has specific preferences, just like with "Dark mode"
    - persnickety 3y ago
      You don't query for it; you don't override. Either the setting is custom and desired, or it's default and it hasn't been adjusted because it's fine.
      - p_l 3y ago
        My personal experience is that the default is usually wrong, especially when I move between different displays. I end manually zooming in/zooming out a lot. Meanwhile using the default size + CSS keyword size modifiers (large/x-large etc.) ended up on breaking on the project I mentioned, especially after for all practical purposes we had to deal with the fact that claims of single display size & resolution to target weren't actually delivered, and when client also asked about possibly opening the interface from portable devices.
        persnickety 3y ago
        Sadly, I agree that browsers have forgotten what defaults are for. Instead of prvoiding something useable for the user, default CSS has turned into a nearly completely abstract set of values of relevance only to developers. But that situation should be fixed on the side of the Web browsers, not every website's author.
        account42 3y ago
        > My personal experience is that the default is usually wrong, especially when I move between different displays. I end manually zooming in/zooming out a lot. Then fix your setup. Campaing for better browser defaults. Do whatever it takes, but don't add hacks with hardcoded (=faulty) assumptions to your websites.
      - mcherm 3y ago
        OR, the setting is default and it hasn't been adjusted because the user doesn't have the faintest idea how to adjust font sizes. Which I suspect is the case for the majority of end users.
        3y ago
  - tiagod 3y ago
    The vast majority of users don't know how to adjust the font-size.
    - Karellen 3y ago
      Is that just because they've never tried to figure out how, because the default font size works fine for them? In which case, the answer is still not to change it.
  - jrwoodruff 3y ago
    If every site used the same font, maybe. But different font faces vary in readability at the same size. Also, we still have to set sizes for things like titles, subtitles and other elements to create a hierarchy on the page. 'Don't resize my fonts' is such a narrow view of whole range of design considerations.
sitharus 3y ago
If only CSS supplied some sensible keywords based on the user's preferences, so you could just ask for say a medium, large, or x-large font. Of course CSS actually does. I've found using font size keyword and rem units can make a UI that scales with user preferences quite possible. Not _easy_ of course, but possible.
CGamesPlay 3y ago
Full-page zoom won already. Browsers all make it very difficult to even scale the font size without zooming the page (Firefox is the easiest, with the setting buried in a submenu as a toggle). And frankly, scaling just the fonts but leaving the rest of the layout is a bad experience: scaling just the font size often breaks the layout, particularly around interactive controls like buttons and tabs. There are two good paths to accessibility here: full-page zoom, and reader mode.
oneeyedpigeon 3y ago
Actually, Medium—the app, at least—does have an option under "Display settings" that lets you switch between two font sizes that are almost imperceptibly different...
jskherman 3y ago
Laughs in pinch to zoom which works for zooming into images as well. I just really hate those websites that disable this and the regular zoom.
- account42 3y ago
  I actually liked it more when browser zoom affected only the font size and images were left 1:1 - for a normal Desktop usage anyway.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Browsers should definitely support both, they are very different features.
  - bobbylarrybobby 3y ago
    I know that Safari has two zoom modes, one which zooms the whole page and one which zooms just the text, leaving everything else intact.
tobr 3y ago
I would expect two large groups of user behavior: 1. People who never adjust font size. 2. People who regularly adjust font size as needed. The first group is helped by a reasonable responsive font size. The second group isn't hindered by it. Is there really a significant group of people who carefully set their preset font size, but then do not adjust it as needed when they visit a page? It seems unlikely to me. Even if all webpages used your defaults, there’s still no one-size-fits-all preset to pick, since typeface, weight, layout, leading, colors and many other things also impact readability. The tool to take control of all of that is reader mode, which is a great option when a website has screwed up its typography.
- navane 3y ago
  I set the text size on my mobile browser. You'll understand as you get older and your devices keep getting more pixels.
  - tobr 3y ago
    I do too, and I’m in group #2. Are you saying you’re not?
    - navane 3y ago
      No, I set it one for each device, then I never touch it again. So I'm am the third group that you doubt exists. I don't want to fiddle with it. I read text on my phone, I have a preferred size to read, I shouldn't have to change it more than once. The few sites which end up too big or too small I read begrudgingly. Can I even set font size per site? Pinch zoom doesn't work because now I have to pan left and right for each sentence? I'm totally with Karellen on this.
      - skribanto 3y ago
        At least in safari, you can hit the AA button and increase the font size there.
- account42 3y ago
tiagod 3y ago
For me, HN is one of the hardest to read on default zoom.
- andy_ppp 3y ago
  It's a real shame the site is never improved due to the captive market and lack of need to make things better. I am constantly downvoting on mobile when I mean to be upvoting for example, surely they could just make the clickable area bigger.
  - yccs27 3y ago
    I also sometimes wish this site got an overhaul, but then I look at the new Reddit layout and feel glad HN hasn't changed like that.
    - andy_ppp 3y ago
      Yes completely, I can't understand why Reddit hate their users so much, I find the site totally unusable and I often just leave immediately if I visit it!
    - Solvency 3y ago
      That's the most slippery slope argument possible. "Whoa can't refine the hit state on two arrows by a few pixels! The whole site might become anew Reddit!"
      - dspillett 3y ago
        I think the argument is more “if I had to choose between the two extremes, I'd definitely prefer this one” than the slippery slope of “I don't want change because change might lead to abomination”.
  - DHPersonal 3y ago
    I use a Safari extension to add my own CSS and edited a Stylish package that already existed to update the design a bit. On iOS and iPadOS I use Hack. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hack-for-hacker-news-reader/id1464477788 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hack-for-hacker-news-reader/id...
RespectYourself 3y ago
[dead]

stefanfisk 3y ago

This method uses the root font size as the base and therefore scales with the user's custom setting.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Karellen 3y ago
The point of the user's custom setting is that you don't need to scale with it. The user's custom setting is the font size they want! That's why they set it. If the user wants a different root font size, they'll set it themselves.
- bryanrasmussen 3y ago
  font size needs to scale because font size can also affect contrast, unless the user is setting custom font size per site it will not be adequate for the user to set the custom font size for all potential situations.
- p_l 3y ago
  Unfortunately, while making a site, I can't query for "does the user set special preferences" in CSS. I use somewhat similar formula in one project to create a common baseline font size that 1) does not break with viewport size changes 2) remain legible for baseline user 3) gives good base value to scale UI elements by rem/em units. Of course it's also a project where the user does not have a chance to mess with font size anyway for the main user, but I'd reuse the formula elsewhere. Wish I could query the browser if the user has specific preferences, just like with "Dark mode"
  - persnickety 3y ago
    You don't query for it; you don't override. Either the setting is custom and desired, or it's default and it hasn't been adjusted because it's fine.
    - p_l 3y ago
      My personal experience is that the default is usually wrong, especially when I move between different displays. I end manually zooming in/zooming out a lot. Meanwhile using the default size + CSS keyword size modifiers (large/x-large etc.) ended up on breaking on the project I mentioned, especially after for all practical purposes we had to deal with the fact that claims of single display size & resolution to target weren't actually delivered, and when client also asked about possibly opening the interface from portable devices.
      - persnickety 3y ago
        Sadly, I agree that browsers have forgotten what defaults are for. Instead of prvoiding something useable for the user, default CSS has turned into a nearly completely abstract set of values of relevance only to developers. But that situation should be fixed on the side of the Web browsers, not every website's author.
      - account42 3y ago
        > My personal experience is that the default is usually wrong, especially when I move between different displays. I end manually zooming in/zooming out a lot. Then fix your setup. Campaing for better browser defaults. Do whatever it takes, but don't add hacks with hardcoded (=faulty) assumptions to your websites.
    - mcherm 3y ago
      OR, the setting is default and it hasn't been adjusted because the user doesn't have the faintest idea how to adjust font sizes. Which I suspect is the case for the majority of end users.
      - 3y ago
- tiagod 3y ago
  The vast majority of users don't know how to adjust the font-size.
  - Karellen 3y ago
    Is that just because they've never tried to figure out how, because the default font size works fine for them? In which case, the answer is still not to change it.
- jrwoodruff 3y ago
  If every site used the same font, maybe. But different font faces vary in readability at the same size. Also, we still have to set sizes for things like titles, subtitles and other elements to create a hierarchy on the page. 'Don't resize my fonts' is such a narrow view of whole range of design considerations.

sitharus 3y ago

If only CSS supplied some sensible keywords based on the user's preferences, so you could just ask for say a medium, large, or x-large font. Of course CSS actually does. I've found using font size keyword and rem units can make a UI that scales with user preferences quite possible. Not _easy_ of course, but possible.

CGamesPlay 3y ago

Full-page zoom won already. Browsers all make it very difficult to even scale the font size without zooming the page (Firefox is the easiest, with the setting buried in a submenu as a toggle). And frankly, scaling just the fonts but leaving the rest of the layout is a bad experience: scaling just the font size often breaks the layout, particularly around interactive controls like buttons and tabs. There are two good paths to accessibility here: full-page zoom, and reader mode.

oneeyedpigeon 3y ago

Actually, Medium—the app, at least—does have an option under "Display settings" that lets you switch between two font sizes that are almost imperceptibly different...

jskherman 3y ago

Laughs in pinch to zoom which works for zooming into images as well. I just really hate those websites that disable this and the regular zoom.

account42 3y ago
I actually liked it more when browser zoom affected only the font size and images were left 1:1 - for a normal Desktop usage anyway.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  Browsers should definitely support both, they are very different features.
- bobbylarrybobby 3y ago
  I know that Safari has two zoom modes, one which zooms the whole page and one which zooms just the text, leaving everything else intact.

tobr 3y ago

I would expect two large groups of user behavior: 1. People who never adjust font size. 2. People who regularly adjust font size as needed. The first group is helped by a reasonable responsive font size. The second group isn't hindered by it. Is there really a significant group of people who carefully set their preset font size, but then do not adjust it as needed when they visit a page? It seems unlikely to me. Even if all webpages used your defaults, there’s still no one-size-fits-all preset to pick, since typeface, weight, layout, leading, colors and many other things also impact readability. The tool to take control of all of that is reader mode, which is a great option when a website has screwed up its typography.

navane 3y ago
I set the text size on my mobile browser. You'll understand as you get older and your devices keep getting more pixels.
- tobr 3y ago
  I do too, and I’m in group #2. Are you saying you’re not?
  - navane 3y ago
    No, I set it one for each device, then I never touch it again. So I'm am the third group that you doubt exists. I don't want to fiddle with it. I read text on my phone, I have a preferred size to read, I shouldn't have to change it more than once. The few sites which end up too big or too small I read begrudgingly. Can I even set font size per site? Pinch zoom doesn't work because now I have to pan left and right for each sentence? I'm totally with Karellen on this.
    - skribanto 3y ago
      At least in safari, you can hit the AA button and increase the font size there.
account42 3y ago

tiagod 3y ago

For me, HN is one of the hardest to read on default zoom.

andy_ppp 3y ago
It's a real shame the site is never improved due to the captive market and lack of need to make things better. I am constantly downvoting on mobile when I mean to be upvoting for example, surely they could just make the clickable area bigger.
- yccs27 3y ago
  I also sometimes wish this site got an overhaul, but then I look at the new Reddit layout and feel glad HN hasn't changed like that.
  - andy_ppp 3y ago
    Yes completely, I can't understand why Reddit hate their users so much, I find the site totally unusable and I often just leave immediately if I visit it!
  - Solvency 3y ago
    That's the most slippery slope argument possible. "Whoa can't refine the hit state on two arrows by a few pixels! The whole site might become anew Reddit!"
    - dspillett 3y ago
      I think the argument is more “if I had to choose between the two extremes, I'd definitely prefer this one” than the slippery slope of “I don't want change because change might lead to abomination”.
- DHPersonal 3y ago
  I use a Safari extension to add my own CSS and edited a Stylish package that already existed to update the design a bit. On iOS and iPadOS I use Hack. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hack-for-hacker-news-reader/id1464477788 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hack-for-hacker-news-reader/id...

RespectYourself 3y ago

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