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I will hit 20 years of professional programming experience in a few months. My q to everyone who has kept at it: did you continue up the career ladder into sta

I will hit 20 years of professional programming experience in a few months. My q to everyone who has kept at it: did you continue up the career ladder into staff eng-type roles? They’re put on the IC ladder but get further away from programming. I’m still conflicted about that. I can see myself trying that for a few years then just dropping back to senior level. I did realize recently that it is hard to give up programming when my whole professional career has been built around being seen as the person who programs things well.

dboreham 3y ago
Advice is to ignore the levels, do your thing and seek ways to be appropriately compensated and respected for that.
cangeroo 3y ago
I have a similar question. It seems to me that the software engineering salary distribution is bimodal. I'm simplifying a bit here, but basically into those that make <100k USD or >200k USD a year. What makes the difference? Is it management vs codemonkey? FAANG vs "small" <10k employee corporate? I like engineering, but my impression is that management often lies to engineers saying "oh, 80k USD is a high salary", when it's clearly not. The divide seems to be between those that know, and those that don't.
- bruce511 3y ago
  You're getting to thd real root of the question here - Whst is most important to you? Is it the code, or the money? Management earns more money. Partly because they control how the money is spent. Partly because they're a value-multiplier. Coders get to write code. You seldom get both [1]. So for each person, it's really important to understand your root motivation. If it's money, then climb the ladder. It's gun in a different way, and if done well, can bring satisfaction. However, if writing code is eat gets you out of bed, if meetings are something you detest, then perhaps "enough money" is enough, and you might prefer enjoying your path through life. [1] you seldom get both in a large company. However in very small companies, and one-man operations, you can often find a very lucrative niche. Fewer people means little management (although more time talking to customers) so you get to spend more time actually producing.
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    For me, it's definitely code. But only certain flavors of code. I would choose to write C even in an oldschool world where it only paid $50k. I even do it at home for fun! Java[Script] or C# though? Nah; I'm going back to school or something. What a weird professional dynamic.
- swatcoder 3y ago
  FAANG got into a bidding war when money was cheap and stocks were moving fast and turned their SWE jobs into a upper middle class vehicles like medicine, law, finance, etc Cargo cult startups followed along by naiviete and businesses that had to compete for their same pool of talent followed along by necessity. But those compensation packages are disconnected from the value generated by the engineers and eclipses it in almost every business and division, so it's not sustainable. The big layoffs are a first part of the correction, and a quieter adjustment will happen as non-cash compensation (options, stock grants, etc) calibrates itself into today's more grounded economy. The managers saying "80k is a high salary" to you are give-or-take correct (assuming you're in a mid/low cost of living area). Software engineering remains a hot market with lots of money flying into it and will pay better than other engineering fields for a while longer, but ultimately pegs into the same "professional middle class" bucket as the rest. If you want to be filthy rich, software engineering is only the right choice when you have an opportunity to ride one of the boom waves and FIRE yourself. You probably won't have that opportunity again for years if you aren't on today's cresting wave already. That's the second hill in your bimodal distribution and it's a dwindling aberration. But if you just like writing software and being financially secure, the first hill is pretty great.
  - ZephyrBlu 3y ago
    This is way off. The median US SWE makes ~$120k according to BLS (Govt data). Median. High comp is not at all disconnected from value. Revenue per head for engineers can be extremely high.
  - idontpost 3y ago
    [dead]
  - Akronymus 3y ago
    I fully expect the faang salaries to stagnate until they are back in line with most other companies.
  - zrn900 3y ago
    > But those compensation packages are disconnected from the value generated by the engineers and eclipses it in almost every business and division, so it's not sustainable. Thats incorrect. Statistics show that those who take most share out of the economic value that they generate are the higher paid tiers of engineers in Silicon Valley. And even they get at most a 10% of the actual economic value they generate. This means that not only those engineers are already being paid WAY less than the actual economic value they generate, but also the majority of the population receive only a pittance from the economic value they generate.
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago
  > my impression is that management often lies to engineers saying "oh, 80k USD is a high salary" Cost of living always anchors these discussions. You can't compare FAANG salaries in very high cost of living areas against somewhere like the midwest. This is also a question of leverage: they're able to find developers by paying 80k, so they continue doing that. If you had something they needed but wasn't as readily available, then you could start discussing what it looked like to be paid more.
swatcoder 3y ago
I'm not a bad communicator and have entrepreneurial blood so I explored various leadership opportunities over the years but it wasn't really a fit for me. I did well in the various roles but didn't enjoy it. To point straight at the childhood desires behind it all, I like receiving puzzles to work on and I like wowing people by anticipting their needs and exceeding their expectations. One can frame management/executive-track work that way too, but the third desire is to do that in the peace and quiet of my own space and (mostly) on my own time -- so for me it all pointed back to increasingly sophisticated remote contract work and using my entrpreneurial blood and commmuniction skills to facilitate it. I don't think anybody can predict what direction you might want to go, but I do suggest you think about what you're really after in your career and which of your opportunities are more or less aligned with that.
- wofo 3y ago
  Wow, you sound like a future version of myself! Would love to have a chat (contact details in my profile).
eikenberry 3y ago
I'm at around 25 years and have decided to stick with the middle of the IC ladder. Moving past that means no more working directly with the technology, only touching it indirectly. Plus theses are "leadership" roles, which pretty much just means moving into the dysfunctional, hierarchical structure most companies seem to default into. I prefer peers, not subordinates. To put it another way, my favorite thing about programming is the creative aspect. Getting a problem, thinking of a solution and then writing the code that solves it is more rewarding than anything the higher positions have to offer.
Sn0wCoder 3y ago
Been slinging code since 1999 (practicum/internship). Started writing InstallShield scripts and Junit tests (Junit 1.0). Next 10 years were Java / C++ / VisualBasic. Was always trying to avoid the JavaScript revolution (I am a real programmer I said lol). Fast forward to today and I sling TypeScript / Angular / Java as a Senior Software Engineer. Had the chance to move up about 2 years ago and did not even apply (need to apply for promotions at the company I am at). Everyone asked why and I see what happens to my coworkers once they do. Still expected to support every app they have ever worked on and do 8+ hours of meetings a day. The pay is more but so is the stress. I have a great family and just want to enjoy my life. I also work a second job facilitating online courses for a major University when I want to pick up a course and make my fun money (plus get to learn more than any of the students in the courses). I still love coding be it evergreen or legacy. I am not ruling out moving up the ladder, but for now still happy slinging code…. I guess if you have 20 years in I only have slightly more, but man I see the burnout above me (talking to people who were once joyful and fun to be around, now snippy and stressed) and just want to enjoy life.
- mattgreenrocks 3y ago
  > Was always trying to avoid the JavaScript revolution I studied compilers during this time. Dynamic typing + production systems are a waste of life. :) > Fast forward to today and I sling TypeScript / Angular / Java as a Senior Software Engineer Yeah, TS is good enough for me now. I swapped Angular for Svelte in there, but otherwise the same. Enjoying learning the frontend now that it is somewhat sane. > [They're] still expected to support every app they have ever worked on and do 8+ hours of meetings a day. The pay is more but so is the stress. I have a great family and just want to enjoy my life. > I see the burnout above me Yeah. Leadership imposes a large emotional cost. And I prefer my job stay in a box for the most part because I have lots of other things in my life. Thanks for the response.
runamuck 3y ago
Do you want to wield "code and tech" to create, or "wield people" to create for you? If you can motivate people to execute on your behalf, you can go into sales. I find that less aggravating than managing development projects.
wduquette 3y ago
I've been programming for over 45 years, since I was 14. I consciously made the choice, back around 2005, to NOT move into task management, but to remain a working software engineer. Writing software is what I love; had I become a manager of programmers, I'd have been miserable. (I tried it for six months, actually; I was miserable.) If you find the jobs farther up the ladder challenging and exciting, go for it. But I've found I was able to build a career on being the "person who programs things well".
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  I'm glad that's a viable path (at least in your experience)! I really hope it'll be in mine. Management seems awful. :p "Hey, you already make great money doing what you love and are good at. The next step is to make more money while having a much higher workload full of stuff you hate and are bad at." ...Like, what? It makes sense if you're a janitor or a paper pusher or something. Now you manage janitors without getting dirty; it's mostly upsides. But with our bizarre, quasi-"artist" attachment to the work, it's an almost tragic trajectory.
  - wduquette 3y ago
    "quasi-artist": That's how I've always felt about it. My job title says, "engineer", but I think of myself as more the software equivalent of a master cabinet maker, an artisan of fine heirloom software. ("Heirloom" is no joke. I'm currently replacing software I wrote over 25 years ago, that's been in use ever since.)
mech422 3y ago
I've been programming professionally since the mid-80s and the career ladder ended up in CTO/Dir. Eng roles... I went back to IC - the politics and managerial stuff just wasn't as interesting as the technical stuff.

dboreham 3y ago

Advice is to ignore the levels, do your thing and seek ways to be appropriately compensated and respected for that.

cangeroo 3y ago

I have a similar question. It seems to me that the software engineering salary distribution is bimodal. I'm simplifying a bit here, but basically into those that make <100k USD or >200k USD a year. What makes the difference? Is it management vs codemonkey? FAANG vs "small" <10k employee corporate? I like engineering, but my impression is that management often lies to engineers saying "oh, 80k USD is a high salary", when it's clearly not. The divide seems to be between those that know, and those that don't.

bruce511 3y ago
You're getting to thd real root of the question here - Whst is most important to you? Is it the code, or the money? Management earns more money. Partly because they control how the money is spent. Partly because they're a value-multiplier. Coders get to write code. You seldom get both [1]. So for each person, it's really important to understand your root motivation. If it's money, then climb the ladder. It's gun in a different way, and if done well, can bring satisfaction. However, if writing code is eat gets you out of bed, if meetings are something you detest, then perhaps "enough money" is enough, and you might prefer enjoying your path through life. [1] you seldom get both in a large company. However in very small companies, and one-man operations, you can often find a very lucrative niche. Fewer people means little management (although more time talking to customers) so you get to spend more time actually producing.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  For me, it's definitely code. But only certain flavors of code. I would choose to write C even in an oldschool world where it only paid $50k. I even do it at home for fun! Java[Script] or C# though? Nah; I'm going back to school or something. What a weird professional dynamic.
swatcoder 3y ago
FAANG got into a bidding war when money was cheap and stocks were moving fast and turned their SWE jobs into a upper middle class vehicles like medicine, law, finance, etc Cargo cult startups followed along by naiviete and businesses that had to compete for their same pool of talent followed along by necessity. But those compensation packages are disconnected from the value generated by the engineers and eclipses it in almost every business and division, so it's not sustainable. The big layoffs are a first part of the correction, and a quieter adjustment will happen as non-cash compensation (options, stock grants, etc) calibrates itself into today's more grounded economy. The managers saying "80k is a high salary" to you are give-or-take correct (assuming you're in a mid/low cost of living area). Software engineering remains a hot market with lots of money flying into it and will pay better than other engineering fields for a while longer, but ultimately pegs into the same "professional middle class" bucket as the rest. If you want to be filthy rich, software engineering is only the right choice when you have an opportunity to ride one of the boom waves and FIRE yourself. You probably won't have that opportunity again for years if you aren't on today's cresting wave already. That's the second hill in your bimodal distribution and it's a dwindling aberration. But if you just like writing software and being financially secure, the first hill is pretty great.
- ZephyrBlu 3y ago
  This is way off. The median US SWE makes ~$120k according to BLS (Govt data). Median. High comp is not at all disconnected from value. Revenue per head for engineers can be extremely high.
- idontpost 3y ago
  [dead]
- Akronymus 3y ago
  I fully expect the faang salaries to stagnate until they are back in line with most other companies.
- zrn900 3y ago
  > But those compensation packages are disconnected from the value generated by the engineers and eclipses it in almost every business and division, so it's not sustainable. Thats incorrect. Statistics show that those who take most share out of the economic value that they generate are the higher paid tiers of engineers in Silicon Valley. And even they get at most a 10% of the actual economic value they generate. This means that not only those engineers are already being paid WAY less than the actual economic value they generate, but also the majority of the population receive only a pittance from the economic value they generate.
mattgreenrocks 3y ago
> my impression is that management often lies to engineers saying "oh, 80k USD is a high salary" Cost of living always anchors these discussions. You can't compare FAANG salaries in very high cost of living areas against somewhere like the midwest. This is also a question of leverage: they're able to find developers by paying 80k, so they continue doing that. If you had something they needed but wasn't as readily available, then you could start discussing what it looked like to be paid more.

swatcoder 3y ago

I'm not a bad communicator and have entrepreneurial blood so I explored various leadership opportunities over the years but it wasn't really a fit for me. I did well in the various roles but didn't enjoy it. To point straight at the childhood desires behind it all, I like receiving puzzles to work on and I like wowing people by anticipting their needs and exceeding their expectations. One can frame management/executive-track work that way too, but the third desire is to do that in the peace and quiet of my own space and (mostly) on my own time -- so for me it all pointed back to increasingly sophisticated remote contract work and using my entrpreneurial blood and commmuniction skills to facilitate it. I don't think anybody can predict what direction you might want to go, but I do suggest you think about what you're really after in your career and which of your opportunities are more or less aligned with that.

wofo 3y ago
Wow, you sound like a future version of myself! Would love to have a chat (contact details in my profile).

eikenberry 3y ago

I'm at around 25 years and have decided to stick with the middle of the IC ladder. Moving past that means no more working directly with the technology, only touching it indirectly. Plus theses are "leadership" roles, which pretty much just means moving into the dysfunctional, hierarchical structure most companies seem to default into. I prefer peers, not subordinates. To put it another way, my favorite thing about programming is the creative aspect. Getting a problem, thinking of a solution and then writing the code that solves it is more rewarding than anything the higher positions have to offer.

Sn0wCoder 3y ago

Been slinging code since 1999 (practicum/internship). Started writing InstallShield scripts and Junit tests (Junit 1.0). Next 10 years were Java / C++ / VisualBasic. Was always trying to avoid the JavaScript revolution (I am a real programmer I said lol). Fast forward to today and I sling TypeScript / Angular / Java as a Senior Software Engineer. Had the chance to move up about 2 years ago and did not even apply (need to apply for promotions at the company I am at). Everyone asked why and I see what happens to my coworkers once they do. Still expected to support every app they have ever worked on and do 8+ hours of meetings a day. The pay is more but so is the stress. I have a great family and just want to enjoy my life. I also work a second job facilitating online courses for a major University when I want to pick up a course and make my fun money (plus get to learn more than any of the students in the courses). I still love coding be it evergreen or legacy. I am not ruling out moving up the ladder, but for now still happy slinging code…. I guess if you have 20 years in I only have slightly more, but man I see the burnout above me (talking to people who were once joyful and fun to be around, now snippy and stressed) and just want to enjoy life.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago
> Was always trying to avoid the JavaScript revolution I studied compilers during this time. Dynamic typing + production systems are a waste of life. :) > Fast forward to today and I sling TypeScript / Angular / Java as a Senior Software Engineer Yeah, TS is good enough for me now. I swapped Angular for Svelte in there, but otherwise the same. Enjoying learning the frontend now that it is somewhat sane. > [They're] still expected to support every app they have ever worked on and do 8+ hours of meetings a day. The pay is more but so is the stress. I have a great family and just want to enjoy my life. > I see the burnout above me Yeah. Leadership imposes a large emotional cost. And I prefer my job stay in a box for the most part because I have lots of other things in my life. Thanks for the response.

runamuck 3y ago

Do you want to wield "code and tech" to create, or "wield people" to create for you? If you can motivate people to execute on your behalf, you can go into sales. I find that less aggravating than managing development projects.

wduquette 3y ago

I've been programming for over 45 years, since I was 14. I consciously made the choice, back around 2005, to NOT move into task management, but to remain a working software engineer. Writing software is what I love; had I become a manager of programmers, I'd have been miserable. (I tried it for six months, actually; I was miserable.) If you find the jobs farther up the ladder challenging and exciting, go for it. But I've found I was able to build a career on being the "person who programs things well".

shrimp_emoji 3y ago
I'm glad that's a viable path (at least in your experience)! I really hope it'll be in mine. Management seems awful. :p "Hey, you already make great money doing what you love and are good at. The next step is to make more money while having a much higher workload full of stuff you hate and are bad at." ...Like, what? It makes sense if you're a janitor or a paper pusher or something. Now you manage janitors without getting dirty; it's mostly upsides. But with our bizarre, quasi-"artist" attachment to the work, it's an almost tragic trajectory.
- wduquette 3y ago
  "quasi-artist": That's how I've always felt about it. My job title says, "engineer", but I think of myself as more the software equivalent of a master cabinet maker, an artisan of fine heirloom software. ("Heirloom" is no joke. I'm currently replacing software I wrote over 25 years ago, that's been in use ever since.)

mech422 3y ago

I've been programming professionally since the mid-80s and the career ladder ended up in CTO/Dir. Eng roles... I went back to IC - the politics and managerial stuff just wasn't as interesting as the technical stuff.