12 ms·

For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

91 points by netfortius 3y ago

brabel 3y ago
If you learn any language as an adult, chances are you're never going to become as fluent as a native speaker, no matter how long you live in a second language environment. I say that as someone who has done it myself, and seen a lot of friends and family going through the same process. Children are a different story. They can learn a language and start speaking just like native speakers, local accent and all, within months. It's absolutely amazing to see. My niece went to Australia when she was 5. She could speak Portuguese, our native language, as a native, obviously, and was very afraid to learn English. A few months later she was fluent in English and had the local accent from basically day 1 :D. I never absorbed the accent myself (moved to Australia as a 23 yo, over 20 years ago). She is 11 now and she now mostly speaks English, and it takes effort for her to answer to us in Portuguese when we try to get her to do so. Her dad, my brother, studied for years (even before moving) to try to speak somewhat fluent and correct English... but even now, more than 5 years later, he struggles. His wife barely speaks anything. When I was new in the country, I could see that the younger the person, the faster and the easier it was to learn. No child I've seen ever had any difficulty learning a new language from scratch... they really are amazing at it! I have been learning Swedish as I've moved to Sweden years ago, and I am in the same position as my brother is in Australia: I can only speak basic Swedish and I make mistakes and have to think a lot to say things coherently, specially without having to translate from English first - I've spoken English so long that it's my main language now... but I still understand Portuguese with less effort than English (and after just a few weeks speaking mostly Portuguese, as I do on some of my vacations, I become much better at speaking it again and words stop coming in English first, but that depends on the topic as well - if it's a topic I only ever speak about in English, like work, I find it horrible to speak about that in Portuguese!). To think some people are able to learn 50 language (as mentioned in the post) blows my mind. I don't think I will ever speak my third language properly, let alone learn another dozen languages in the future :D But this is another observation I've made over the years: a minority of people are very talented at languages and can indeed learn much more easily than others... though as far as I know, only children can learn within months and with perfect pronunciation.
- a_c_s 3y ago
  Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult had their accent it would be barely intelligible (and in fact many small children are hard to understand by people who don't spend a lot of time with them). Here's one speech sound development guide for English: https://childdevelopment.com.au/resources/child-development-charts/speech-sounds-developmental-chart/ https://childdevelopment.com.au/resources/child-development-... It is amazing to watch how fast small children grow and develop but we also (rightfully) grade them on a curve. It is when we compare them to adults that somehow we forget the curve being applied.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - simonbarker87 3y ago
    Just a thought from someone who speaks English and a smattering of Spanish. If the child can correctly express the idea/intent they want and be understood then arguably they have learned that part of the language. Sure it might not sound how an adult would be likewise they probably don’t in their native language either right? I doubt anyone is saying that kids learn to speak the language perfectly but clearly there is a pattern where by they are able to understand and express themselves faster than adults - even if they sound childish still.
    - pessimizer 3y ago
      The person you're responding to said that children are graded on a curve. Your response is that children should be graded on a curve. Fine, but only being understood by your mother when near an ice cream shop is not the goal for adults learning a second language.
    - a_c_s 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
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triyambakam 3y ago
> each of whom had at least some degree of proficiency in five or more languages Maybe the study clarifies this but the conclusion is exactly as I would expect if you use such a loose definition of polyglot.
- tomsmeding 3y ago
  Why? Would you expect something different for people who speak more languages, or speak them more proficiently? The paper abstract ( https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/34/3/bhae049/7625489 https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/34/3/bhae049/7625489 ) does into a little more detail on their findings already.
  - mplewis 3y ago
    I mean, "some degree of proficiency" means the person self-reported "at least minimal proficiency." I could achieve minimal proficiency through a few hours of language tapes.
- csa 3y ago
  I see your point. I’m good at learning languages, and 100 hours of self-study would make me sound “fluent” to most Americans. That said, I would self-rate myself as “minimally proficient, mostly at short simple conversations”. > Maybe the study clarifies this They do: “The mean self-reported proficiency for the highest-proficiency language was 20 out of the maximum score of 20 (SD = 0; note that for three participants, the highest-proficiency language was not their native language; Table S1), 18.3 for the second most proficient language (SD = 2.45, range: 10–20), 15.8 for the third most proficient language (SD = 3.36, range: 8–20), 13.3 for the fourth most proficient language (SD = 4.034, range: 7–20), 11.2 for the fifth most proficient language (SD = 4.23, range: 4–20), and—for individuals with proficiency in more than five languages—10.33 for the sixth most proficient language (SD = 3.99, range: 4–18).” These were folks who self-reported (perhaps inaccurately, but still…) at a relatively high level of proficiency.
Arc_Orion 3y ago
This makes sense. I have fairly good L2 German production, but I go from conversant to barely coherent when fatigued. My L1 English production diminishes, but not nearly as much. Likewise, my friends who speak English as an L2, even those who have spoken it with a strong command for over a decade, will struggle when very tired. Though we usually speak in English (her English is way better than my German), I've had a German friend ask me to switch a few times when she was very stressed or tired. She speaks at least five languages, with English being her most fluent after German. That said, I'm most interested in the follow-up research mentioned at the end of the article. > They also plan to study people who learned one language from infancy but moved to the United States at a very young age and began speaking English as their dominant language, while becoming less proficient in their native language, to help disentangle the effects of proficiency versus age of acquisition on brain responses.
- Tmpod 3y ago
  Yeah, I have similar experiences. When fatigued, my English speech stops being as fluid and my stuttering intensifies (akin to higher stress levels). I've also observed that in those cases, mixing language becomes much more common, incorporating words from my native language in English, and vice-versa too.
- OnACoffeeBreak 3y ago
  Regarding the follow-up... I grew up speaking only Russian. I moved to the US when I was 15. I had 7 years of deliberate English practice prior to the move and became fluid in it within a year of moving. That was about 30 years ago. Because I moved alone, and didn't seek out Russian speakers for this 30 year duration, I only occasionally spoke Russian. The result is that now my Russian feels like a second language. When speaking it, I constantly struggle to translate from English. It doesn't feel like my Russian comprehension diminished, but speaking it is a struggle. The shift to English being the primary language happened in stages. The last noticeable change for me was when I would need to count something. For a decade, maybe longer, I would default to Russian in my head when counting. The change was gradual, but now it's English all the way. Fun story... During the first year after the move, I remember being freaked out when I had my first dream where I spoke English.
Havoc 3y ago
Presumably they’ve adjusted for actual use? I grew up with German as first but find English (2nd) easier thanks to more use. And same for third lang (Afrikaans) - ease feels directly correlated to usage not order
- Tmpod 3y ago
  I think perhaps both use and order have an effect on the cognitive effort one has to put in to speak in a language. You probably started learning English at a fairly young age (less than 15?), which certainly helped you cement it as a "native" language. Yet, it is interesting that you report Afrikaans as being easier than German. When did you start learning it?
  - Havoc 3y ago
    You're right - was at a young age. School enforced 3x lang minimum. >Afrikaans as being easier than German It definitely is. Most places quote hours to learn as substantially higher (~30%) for German and in practice it feels even higher. Afrikaans average conversational level feels simpler too. >When did you start learning it? German 1st and then English and Afrikaans bit later maybe like 10? School medium of instruction alternated German/English
dhosek 3y ago
I’d be curious what would happen with my kids who grew up with pretty much equal levels of Spanish and English at home, although right now, they’re mere bilinguals (my ex-wife as a trilingual (Spanish-English-French), is a bit of a laggard among her family where many speak four or more languages).
aragonite 3y ago
In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your native language with anyone in months, the moment you need to count (a sizable enough collection), or you need to enter on your computer a numerical passcode received on your smartphone, you (most likely) find yourself reverting (in your (sub)vocaliztion) to the number-words of your mother tongue, because doing the same thing in English just feels so much more cumbersome.
- kelvie 3y ago
  Does it have to do with syllables? I use English mostly (and am certainly a native English speaker), but use my mother tongue to memorize numbers, as mine (Cantonese) has single syllable numbers. I think I can keep 5-7 numbers in short-term memory in english, whereas I think it's closer to 10 or 12 in Cantonese.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    I don't think so. Neither my native nor adopted tongues are English. My native tongue actually has more syllables than the adopted one, for some lowish numbers. Yet, I still count in my native tongue, e.g., when counting the reps while lifting weights. I'd say I speak better my adopted tongue than my native one. People from my country say I speak with an accent, while locals are surprised to learn I'm a foreigner, since I speak with no accent. When I think about things, I also use my adopted language (I went to school here, so it's easier, since I've learned the concepts in this language). Hell, I sometimes use English for my internal thinking. Just not when counting or adjacent tasks.
- fipar 3y ago
  While I don't belong to the same group, I've been working remotely for a bit over 2 decades now (not continuously at first, but yes for the last 15 years) so on weekdays I do end up speaking more in English than in Spanish (my native language) with other people, and I definitely have the same issues you mention with number-words. I'm not sure if it's related but a similar thing happens with spelling. I guess because there's some ordinal relation to the letters in a word? But I feel whenever I need to spell my name in English it takes me about the same mental effort as giving my phone number, and I'm otherwise rather fluent in that language.
aeyes 3y ago
> there is something unique about the first language one acquires, which allows the brain to process it with minimal effort I am only able to overhear normal conversations between other people in public in my native tongue. With any of the other languages I have to actively concentrate on listening. I have been living abroad for almost 10 years and I'm very proficient in the language (not English) so proficiency shouldn't be the issue.
EXOpool 3y ago
I truly wonder what dedication one would have to have in order to learn 54 languages. That is just the most impressive even if you know the language at a basic level. Quote from the article: "including one who spoke 54 languages with at least some proficiency."
- ajuc 3y ago
  Once you know Russian, Polish and Serbian - you know all Slavic languages basically. Maybe Albanian will give you some problems. That's like 15 for the price of 3. There's probably similar shortcuts in other language families.
  - dron57 3y ago
    Albanian is not a Slavic language at all.
    - ajuc 3y ago
      Meant Bulgarian/Macedonian, my bad.
glitchc 3y ago
I'm not sure I buy this. According to their definition I'm a polyglot, but I do not experience this difference in mental effort when speaking or listening. I often make jokes crossing two or three different languages, it feels completely natural. My proficiency, however, isn't the same in all of them but that's mainly tied to frequency of use and not lack of knowledge. I think when languages are learnt plays a critical factor in the measurements. If one learns three languages as a young child at the same time, chances are the level of effort is roughly equivalent when speaking or conversing, and the results will be quite distinct from someone else learning different languages at different points in their life.
javier_e06 3y ago
If I miss in a pick up basketball game an easy layup I can curse to my hearts content in English but so what, now If say "Por un puto carajo!" now there is catharsis.
coolThingsFirst 3y ago
i only know 4.
nyanmatt 3y ago
I've noticed something else particular to my native tongue. It lacks emotion. I just don't really know how to express myself in English. I can speak very technically and logically, but I'm stumped when it comes to matters of the heart. My Japanese, on the other hand, isn't fluent, but I'm able to tap into way more emotion. It feels as if I'm singing when I nail a great sentence in nihongo. It really lands with the listener and I feel emotionally connected in that moment. Could this be related to the increased brain activity required for foreign language?
- sotix 3y ago
  I think it might be that English isn’t very expressive. It’s much more technical and to the point. I find Greek and Spanish significantly more expressive when I speak them and particularly when I hear natives speak the languages.
takinola 3y ago
I noticed an interesting phenomenon when I was learning my 3rd language. Whenever I was struggling to find a word in the newest language, I was more likely to confuse it with a word in my 2nd language than with my 1st. For some reason, my brain had assigned language #1 as "primary" and then all subsequent languages as "secondary" leading to sometimes substituting words from one to the other under duress.
HarriethJamson 3y ago
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91 points by netfortius 3y ago

If you learn any language as an adult, chances are you're never going to become as fluent as a native speaker, no matter how long you live in a second language environment. I say that as someone who has done it myself, and seen a lot of friends and family going through the same process. Children are a different story. They can learn a language and start speaking just like native speakers, local accent and all, within months. It's absolutely amazing to see. My niece went to Australia when she was 5. She could speak Portuguese, our native language, as a native, obviously, and was very afraid to learn English. A few months later she was fluent in English and had the local accent from basically day 1 :D. I never absorbed the accent myself (moved to Australia as a 23 yo, over 20 years ago). She is 11 now and she now mostly speaks English, and it takes effort for her to answer to us in Portuguese when we try to get her to do so. Her dad, my brother, studied for years (even before moving) to try to speak somewhat fluent and correct English... but even now, more than 5 years later, he struggles. His wife barely speaks anything. When I was new in the country, I could see that the younger the person, the faster and the easier it was to learn. No child I've seen ever had any difficulty learning a new language from scratch... they really are amazing at it! I have been learning Swedish as I've moved to Sweden years ago, and I am in the same position as my brother is in Australia: I can only speak basic Swedish and I make mistakes and have to think a lot to say things coherently, specially without having to translate from English first - I've spoken English so long that it's my main language now... but I still understand Portuguese with less effort than English (and after just a few weeks speaking mostly Portuguese, as I do on some of my vacations, I become much better at speaking it again and words stop coming in English first, but that depends on the topic as well - if it's a topic I only ever speak about in English, like work, I find it horrible to speak about that in Portuguese!). To think some people are able to learn 50 language (as mentioned in the post) blows my mind. I don't think I will ever speak my third language properly, let alone learn another dozen languages in the future :D But this is another observation I've made over the years: a minority of people are very talented at languages and can indeed learn much more easily than others... though as far as I know, only children can learn within months and with perfect pronunciation.

a_c_s 3y ago
Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult had their accent it would be barely intelligible (and in fact many small children are hard to understand by people who don't spend a lot of time with them). Here's one speech sound development guide for English: https://childdevelopment.com.au/resources/child-development-charts/speech-sounds-developmental-chart/ https://childdevelopment.com.au/resources/child-development-... It is amazing to watch how fast small children grow and develop but we also (rightfully) grade them on a curve. It is when we compare them to adults that somehow we forget the curve being applied.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- simonbarker87 3y ago
  Just a thought from someone who speaks English and a smattering of Spanish. If the child can correctly express the idea/intent they want and be understood then arguably they have learned that part of the language. Sure it might not sound how an adult would be likewise they probably don’t in their native language either right? I doubt anyone is saying that kids learn to speak the language perfectly but clearly there is a pattern where by they are able to understand and express themselves faster than adults - even if they sound childish still.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    The person you're responding to said that children are graded on a curve. Your response is that children should be graded on a curve. Fine, but only being understood by your mother when near an ice cream shop is not the goal for adults learning a second language.
  - a_c_s 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

triyambakam 3y ago

> each of whom had at least some degree of proficiency in five or more languages Maybe the study clarifies this but the conclusion is exactly as I would expect if you use such a loose definition of polyglot.

tomsmeding 3y ago
Why? Would you expect something different for people who speak more languages, or speak them more proficiently? The paper abstract ( https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/34/3/bhae049/7625489 https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/34/3/bhae049/7625489 ) does into a little more detail on their findings already.
- mplewis 3y ago
  I mean, "some degree of proficiency" means the person self-reported "at least minimal proficiency." I could achieve minimal proficiency through a few hours of language tapes.
csa 3y ago
I see your point. I’m good at learning languages, and 100 hours of self-study would make me sound “fluent” to most Americans. That said, I would self-rate myself as “minimally proficient, mostly at short simple conversations”. > Maybe the study clarifies this They do: “The mean self-reported proficiency for the highest-proficiency language was 20 out of the maximum score of 20 (SD = 0; note that for three participants, the highest-proficiency language was not their native language; Table S1), 18.3 for the second most proficient language (SD = 2.45, range: 10–20), 15.8 for the third most proficient language (SD = 3.36, range: 8–20), 13.3 for the fourth most proficient language (SD = 4.034, range: 7–20), 11.2 for the fifth most proficient language (SD = 4.23, range: 4–20), and—for individuals with proficiency in more than five languages—10.33 for the sixth most proficient language (SD = 3.99, range: 4–18).” These were folks who self-reported (perhaps inaccurately, but still…) at a relatively high level of proficiency.

Arc_Orion 3y ago

This makes sense. I have fairly good L2 German production, but I go from conversant to barely coherent when fatigued. My L1 English production diminishes, but not nearly as much. Likewise, my friends who speak English as an L2, even those who have spoken it with a strong command for over a decade, will struggle when very tired. Though we usually speak in English (her English is way better than my German), I've had a German friend ask me to switch a few times when she was very stressed or tired. She speaks at least five languages, with English being her most fluent after German. That said, I'm most interested in the follow-up research mentioned at the end of the article. > They also plan to study people who learned one language from infancy but moved to the United States at a very young age and began speaking English as their dominant language, while becoming less proficient in their native language, to help disentangle the effects of proficiency versus age of acquisition on brain responses.

Tmpod 3y ago
Yeah, I have similar experiences. When fatigued, my English speech stops being as fluid and my stuttering intensifies (akin to higher stress levels). I've also observed that in those cases, mixing language becomes much more common, incorporating words from my native language in English, and vice-versa too.
OnACoffeeBreak 3y ago
Regarding the follow-up... I grew up speaking only Russian. I moved to the US when I was 15. I had 7 years of deliberate English practice prior to the move and became fluid in it within a year of moving. That was about 30 years ago. Because I moved alone, and didn't seek out Russian speakers for this 30 year duration, I only occasionally spoke Russian. The result is that now my Russian feels like a second language. When speaking it, I constantly struggle to translate from English. It doesn't feel like my Russian comprehension diminished, but speaking it is a struggle. The shift to English being the primary language happened in stages. The last noticeable change for me was when I would need to count something. For a decade, maybe longer, I would default to Russian in my head when counting. The change was gradual, but now it's English all the way. Fun story... During the first year after the move, I remember being freaked out when I had my first dream where I spoke English.

Havoc 3y ago

Presumably they’ve adjusted for actual use? I grew up with German as first but find English (2nd) easier thanks to more use. And same for third lang (Afrikaans) - ease feels directly correlated to usage not order

Tmpod 3y ago
I think perhaps both use and order have an effect on the cognitive effort one has to put in to speak in a language. You probably started learning English at a fairly young age (less than 15?), which certainly helped you cement it as a "native" language. Yet, it is interesting that you report Afrikaans as being easier than German. When did you start learning it?
- Havoc 3y ago
  You're right - was at a young age. School enforced 3x lang minimum. >Afrikaans as being easier than German It definitely is. Most places quote hours to learn as substantially higher (~30%) for German and in practice it feels even higher. Afrikaans average conversational level feels simpler too. >When did you start learning it? German 1st and then English and Afrikaans bit later maybe like 10? School medium of instruction alternated German/English

dhosek 3y ago

I’d be curious what would happen with my kids who grew up with pretty much equal levels of Spanish and English at home, although right now, they’re mere bilinguals (my ex-wife as a trilingual (Spanish-English-French), is a bit of a laggard among her family where many speak four or more languages).

aragonite 3y ago

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your native language with anyone in months, the moment you need to count (a sizable enough collection), or you need to enter on your computer a numerical passcode received on your smartphone, you (most likely) find yourself reverting (in your (sub)vocaliztion) to the number-words of your mother tongue, because doing the same thing in English just feels so much more cumbersome.

kelvie 3y ago
Does it have to do with syllables? I use English mostly (and am certainly a native English speaker), but use my mother tongue to memorize numbers, as mine (Cantonese) has single syllable numbers. I think I can keep 5-7 numbers in short-term memory in english, whereas I think it's closer to 10 or 12 in Cantonese.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  I don't think so. Neither my native nor adopted tongues are English. My native tongue actually has more syllables than the adopted one, for some lowish numbers. Yet, I still count in my native tongue, e.g., when counting the reps while lifting weights. I'd say I speak better my adopted tongue than my native one. People from my country say I speak with an accent, while locals are surprised to learn I'm a foreigner, since I speak with no accent. When I think about things, I also use my adopted language (I went to school here, so it's easier, since I've learned the concepts in this language). Hell, I sometimes use English for my internal thinking. Just not when counting or adjacent tasks.
fipar 3y ago
While I don't belong to the same group, I've been working remotely for a bit over 2 decades now (not continuously at first, but yes for the last 15 years) so on weekdays I do end up speaking more in English than in Spanish (my native language) with other people, and I definitely have the same issues you mention with number-words. I'm not sure if it's related but a similar thing happens with spelling. I guess because there's some ordinal relation to the letters in a word? But I feel whenever I need to spell my name in English it takes me about the same mental effort as giving my phone number, and I'm otherwise rather fluent in that language.

aeyes 3y ago

> there is something unique about the first language one acquires, which allows the brain to process it with minimal effort I am only able to overhear normal conversations between other people in public in my native tongue. With any of the other languages I have to actively concentrate on listening. I have been living abroad for almost 10 years and I'm very proficient in the language (not English) so proficiency shouldn't be the issue.

EXOpool 3y ago

I truly wonder what dedication one would have to have in order to learn 54 languages. That is just the most impressive even if you know the language at a basic level. Quote from the article: "including one who spoke 54 languages with at least some proficiency."

ajuc 3y ago
Once you know Russian, Polish and Serbian - you know all Slavic languages basically. Maybe Albanian will give you some problems. That's like 15 for the price of 3. There's probably similar shortcuts in other language families.
- dron57 3y ago
  Albanian is not a Slavic language at all.
  - ajuc 3y ago
    Meant Bulgarian/Macedonian, my bad.

glitchc 3y ago

I'm not sure I buy this. According to their definition I'm a polyglot, but I do not experience this difference in mental effort when speaking or listening. I often make jokes crossing two or three different languages, it feels completely natural. My proficiency, however, isn't the same in all of them but that's mainly tied to frequency of use and not lack of knowledge. I think when languages are learnt plays a critical factor in the measurements. If one learns three languages as a young child at the same time, chances are the level of effort is roughly equivalent when speaking or conversing, and the results will be quite distinct from someone else learning different languages at different points in their life.

javier_e06 3y ago

If I miss in a pick up basketball game an easy layup I can curse to my hearts content in English but so what, now If say "Por un puto carajo!" now there is catharsis.

coolThingsFirst 3y ago

i only know 4.

nyanmatt 3y ago

I've noticed something else particular to my native tongue. It lacks emotion. I just don't really know how to express myself in English. I can speak very technically and logically, but I'm stumped when it comes to matters of the heart. My Japanese, on the other hand, isn't fluent, but I'm able to tap into way more emotion. It feels as if I'm singing when I nail a great sentence in nihongo. It really lands with the listener and I feel emotionally connected in that moment. Could this be related to the increased brain activity required for foreign language?

sotix 3y ago
I think it might be that English isn’t very expressive. It’s much more technical and to the point. I find Greek and Spanish significantly more expressive when I speak them and particularly when I hear natives speak the languages.

takinola 3y ago

I noticed an interesting phenomenon when I was learning my 3rd language. Whenever I was struggling to find a word in the newest language, I was more likely to confuse it with a word in my 2nd language than with my 1st. For some reason, my brain had assigned language #1 as "primary" and then all subsequent languages as "secondary" leading to sometimes substituting words from one to the other under duress.

HarriethJamson 3y ago

[dead]