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The app still has to be notarized, this seems logical to me, I’d only be worried if they ever allowed unsigned apps to run. There are plenty of “free Vbucks” a

The app still has to be notarized, this seems logical to me, I’d only be worried if they ever allowed unsigned apps to run. There are plenty of “free Vbucks” and survey sites that show you how to enable sideloading on Android to download said app that is just pure malware.

gear54rus 3y ago
yes, very worrying to be able to run software you want on the device that you purchased
- acdha 3y ago
  This framing ignores the very real harm which has come to millions of people. It’s not the 80s any more and there are mature industries built around spying on users or tricking them into decisions with significant financial consequences. Most of the effective defenses require something like notarization to make it hard for attackers to simply disappear without legal consequences, so we need ways to do that at reasonable cost. €0.50 seems like a reasonable cost for that, similar to how we don’t make circuit breakers or seatbelts optional just because some guy thinks he doesn’t need them and resents paying the extra cost.
- overstay8930 3y ago
  I’m not going to hire an IT team to install and maintain MDM to prevent my grandmother from falling for a scam website and installing “free money quick 2024 +++ candy crush ultra”
  - Ajedi32 3y ago
    If you want to block your grandma from being able to install apps from outside the Apple app store, that's fine (as long as she agrees to it). Seems like a useful feature. Maybe file it under "parental controls" or something. If you want to block me from being able to install apps from outside the Apple app store though, that's none of your business (or Apple's).
    - overstay8930 3y ago
      It is Apple’s business, actually. Don’t like it? You don’t like anything about the Apple ecosystem. Buy an Android phone from one of the thousands of OEMs. Apple is not stopping you from buying a phone that isn’t from Apple. If most people thought like you did, they would just not buy iPhones. The problem is nobody wants what you’re asking for, because you’re buying into the euro-populist cope that it helps consumers, even though this was just a play to allow European companies to even have a small chance at making money in tech because of how over regulated the industry is in Europe. You’re asking for iOS to be a flavor of Android, and the reality is the Android experience fucking sucks.
      - tristan957 3y ago
        How is anyone supposed to take your argument seriously when you use the term "euro-populist cope?" > even though this was just a play to allow European companies to even have a small chance at making money in tech because of how over regulated the industry is in Europe Please cite your sources. > You’re asking for iOS to be a flavor of Android, and the reality is the Android experience fucking sucks. No. The user is clearly asking to run software on a device that they own. Why is Apple controlling what software people can run on hardware that they don't own? Should Microsoft not allow people to run software on devices that Microsoft does not own?
asdp9iujaspid 3y ago
> worried if they ever allowed unsigned apps to run I see this stance often - Do you mean worried for the wellbeing of the easily manipulable (e.g. children) on the platform, Or worried for the quality floor more generally? The former has an argument, the latter does not in my opinion. Even then while I welcome a requirement for apple to notarise apps for regular install (particularly as a means to verify the source), I'd also demand the ability to run unsigned apps unrestricted - whether the barrier is self-signing, a settings checkbox, make me stare at a 30s countdown, whatever.
- gorjusborg 3y ago
  Exactly. My device, my code can run. The idea that I can't run my own apps because a company is protecting me is laughable.
- overstay8930 3y ago
  I worry about my family both young and old who all had adware and malware ridden Android phones before I got them iPhones. The vast majority of people use smartphones against their will and have no desire to learn anything about the magical Facebook machine in their hands. They press buttons and things happen, who cares what the dialog box says, they press the button that will get them doing what they want to do the fastest, who cares if it said whatever they were doing is dangerous. This is how most people view their phones, and why there are Android botnets and not iOS botnets.
  - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
    > who all had adware and malware ridden Android phones before I got them iPhones. In all fairness nothing changes. You are happy with the store? Stay on the store! But I am an adult, a developer with 25 years of experience and enjoy hacking. It is my right to pretend from Apple to let me install whatever I want on the device I bought and own 100% and to not be patronizing. Put the damn setting somewhere hard to activate accidentally and require triple authorisation if it need to be, but stop playing games. Thanks
  - isodev 3y ago
PlutoIsAPlanet 3y ago
I think they should allow unsigned apps to run in a similar way to developer mode on the Xbox. You can enable unsigned apps, but you'll loose Apple services (e.g. iMessage). This should be enough to convince normal users not to do it, but allow those who really want to do it, to do it.
TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
So how is it possible, that I can run unsigned, unnotarized applications on MacOS?
- overstay8930 3y ago
  That is one of the reasons why businesses must have security software monitoring your entire system on macOS, but not on iOS. On Windows, people literally just give everything they install complete root access to their entire system when installing applications, might as well bring that to iOS too, right? You’re not making the point you think you’re making. There’s a lot more danger using macOS/Windows than iOS, and the people who interact with computers at work aren’t given administrative access for a reason. I can grant anything access to my iCloud Keychain on macOS, do you honestly think iOS users should be able to press a button to allow this if a random app requested it? Do you even think they will know what that means? Now imagine if unsigned applications could access keychain like on macOS. How well do you think that will go down? Apple drew the line at consumer safety, and developers hate that they can’t abuse their powers like they do everywhere else.
  - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
    > That is one of the reasons why businesses must have security software monitoring your entire system on macOS, but not on iOS. Because it is not even possible on iOS, so false sense of security > On Windows, people literally just give everything they install complete root access to their entire system when installing applications, might as well bring that to iOS too, right? You have not used Windows for looooong time, otherwise you would know that this is not the case since Windows 7 and not the case at all on Domain (enterprise) Windows since Windows XP > I can grant anything access to my iCloud Keychain on macOS, do you honestly think iOS users should be able to press a button to allow this if a random app requested it? Do you even think they will know what that means? Now imagine if unsigned applications could access keychain like on macOS. How well do you think that will go down? Of course, why not. Are iOS user dumber than MacOS users? > Apple drew the line at consumer safety, and developers hate that they can’t abuse their powers like they do everywhere else. This has nothing to do with safety, but with users demanding support for their iOS toys, while refusing to acknowledge, that if Apple bans me from App Store for whatever reason, all the money spent on iOS support are now running down the drain.
rchaud 3y ago
> There are plenty of “free Vbucks” and survey sites that show you how to enable sideloading on Android to download said app that is just pure malware. And yet the world hasn't collapsed due to every Android users' identity and bank accounts being stolen. Maybe users aren't as dumb as Apple pretends they are.

gear54rus 3y ago

yes, very worrying to be able to run software you want on the device that you purchased

acdha 3y ago
This framing ignores the very real harm which has come to millions of people. It’s not the 80s any more and there are mature industries built around spying on users or tricking them into decisions with significant financial consequences. Most of the effective defenses require something like notarization to make it hard for attackers to simply disappear without legal consequences, so we need ways to do that at reasonable cost. €0.50 seems like a reasonable cost for that, similar to how we don’t make circuit breakers or seatbelts optional just because some guy thinks he doesn’t need them and resents paying the extra cost.
overstay8930 3y ago
I’m not going to hire an IT team to install and maintain MDM to prevent my grandmother from falling for a scam website and installing “free money quick 2024 +++ candy crush ultra”
- Ajedi32 3y ago
  If you want to block your grandma from being able to install apps from outside the Apple app store, that's fine (as long as she agrees to it). Seems like a useful feature. Maybe file it under "parental controls" or something. If you want to block me from being able to install apps from outside the Apple app store though, that's none of your business (or Apple's).
  - overstay8930 3y ago
    It is Apple’s business, actually. Don’t like it? You don’t like anything about the Apple ecosystem. Buy an Android phone from one of the thousands of OEMs. Apple is not stopping you from buying a phone that isn’t from Apple. If most people thought like you did, they would just not buy iPhones. The problem is nobody wants what you’re asking for, because you’re buying into the euro-populist cope that it helps consumers, even though this was just a play to allow European companies to even have a small chance at making money in tech because of how over regulated the industry is in Europe. You’re asking for iOS to be a flavor of Android, and the reality is the Android experience fucking sucks.
    - tristan957 3y ago
      How is anyone supposed to take your argument seriously when you use the term "euro-populist cope?" > even though this was just a play to allow European companies to even have a small chance at making money in tech because of how over regulated the industry is in Europe Please cite your sources. > You’re asking for iOS to be a flavor of Android, and the reality is the Android experience fucking sucks. No. The user is clearly asking to run software on a device that they own. Why is Apple controlling what software people can run on hardware that they don't own? Should Microsoft not allow people to run software on devices that Microsoft does not own?

asdp9iujaspid 3y ago

> worried if they ever allowed unsigned apps to run I see this stance often - Do you mean worried for the wellbeing of the easily manipulable (e.g. children) on the platform, Or worried for the quality floor more generally? The former has an argument, the latter does not in my opinion. Even then while I welcome a requirement for apple to notarise apps for regular install (particularly as a means to verify the source), I'd also demand the ability to run unsigned apps unrestricted - whether the barrier is self-signing, a settings checkbox, make me stare at a 30s countdown, whatever.

gorjusborg 3y ago
Exactly. My device, my code can run. The idea that I can't run my own apps because a company is protecting me is laughable.
overstay8930 3y ago
I worry about my family both young and old who all had adware and malware ridden Android phones before I got them iPhones. The vast majority of people use smartphones against their will and have no desire to learn anything about the magical Facebook machine in their hands. They press buttons and things happen, who cares what the dialog box says, they press the button that will get them doing what they want to do the fastest, who cares if it said whatever they were doing is dangerous. This is how most people view their phones, and why there are Android botnets and not iOS botnets.
- peoplefromibiza 3y ago
  > who all had adware and malware ridden Android phones before I got them iPhones. In all fairness nothing changes. You are happy with the store? Stay on the store! But I am an adult, a developer with 25 years of experience and enjoy hacking. It is my right to pretend from Apple to let me install whatever I want on the device I bought and own 100% and to not be patronizing. Put the damn setting somewhere hard to activate accidentally and require triple authorisation if it need to be, but stop playing games. Thanks
- isodev 3y ago

PlutoIsAPlanet 3y ago

I think they should allow unsigned apps to run in a similar way to developer mode on the Xbox. You can enable unsigned apps, but you'll loose Apple services (e.g. iMessage). This should be enough to convince normal users not to do it, but allow those who really want to do it, to do it.

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago

So how is it possible, that I can run unsigned, unnotarized applications on MacOS?

overstay8930 3y ago
That is one of the reasons why businesses must have security software monitoring your entire system on macOS, but not on iOS. On Windows, people literally just give everything they install complete root access to their entire system when installing applications, might as well bring that to iOS too, right? You’re not making the point you think you’re making. There’s a lot more danger using macOS/Windows than iOS, and the people who interact with computers at work aren’t given administrative access for a reason. I can grant anything access to my iCloud Keychain on macOS, do you honestly think iOS users should be able to press a button to allow this if a random app requested it? Do you even think they will know what that means? Now imagine if unsigned applications could access keychain like on macOS. How well do you think that will go down? Apple drew the line at consumer safety, and developers hate that they can’t abuse their powers like they do everywhere else.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  > That is one of the reasons why businesses must have security software monitoring your entire system on macOS, but not on iOS. Because it is not even possible on iOS, so false sense of security > On Windows, people literally just give everything they install complete root access to their entire system when installing applications, might as well bring that to iOS too, right? You have not used Windows for looooong time, otherwise you would know that this is not the case since Windows 7 and not the case at all on Domain (enterprise) Windows since Windows XP > I can grant anything access to my iCloud Keychain on macOS, do you honestly think iOS users should be able to press a button to allow this if a random app requested it? Do you even think they will know what that means? Now imagine if unsigned applications could access keychain like on macOS. How well do you think that will go down? Of course, why not. Are iOS user dumber than MacOS users? > Apple drew the line at consumer safety, and developers hate that they can’t abuse their powers like they do everywhere else. This has nothing to do with safety, but with users demanding support for their iOS toys, while refusing to acknowledge, that if Apple bans me from App Store for whatever reason, all the money spent on iOS support are now running down the drain.

rchaud 3y ago

> There are plenty of “free Vbucks” and survey sites that show you how to enable sideloading on Android to download said app that is just pure malware. And yet the world hasn't collapsed due to every Android users' identity and bank accounts being stolen. Maybe users aren't as dumb as Apple pretends they are.