5 ms·

ESR to Torvalds: "You suffer the curse of the gifted programmer" (2000)

46 points by fdeage 3y ago

ryan-duve 3y ago
Wow, in 2000. I wonder what impact/response this elicited? Does someone have a mailing list link so I can read through the reply tree?
- rjh29 3y ago
  https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/index.html#221 https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/index.html... Linus didn't reply. To be fair ESR's whole argument is "You're smart but inexperienced so you don't understand my point yet" which doesn't exactly have a rebuttal.
- joezydeco 3y ago
  Well, Linus eventually came around when it came to version control. He...went and wrote his own.
  - sgarland 3y ago
    As one does.
htrp 3y ago
He's not wrong! Thankfully a lot of other people steppped in to help support Linus and maxe linux the ecosystem it is today.
- coldtea 3y ago
  There were already tons of contributors to Linux kernel in 2000. It was one of the most hyped times (head of the dotcom bust? half of it was major investing in everything Linux, from distributions to desktop environments - yes, there was a time when something like a Gnome file manager would get major VC backing).
Attummm 3y ago
That was a real, stern-talking-to email but beautifully written.
gregw2 3y ago
I have gotten jaded about ESR, but this post was spot on and had an awkward but effective mix of respect, flattery, warning/rebuke, care. Linus's subsequent wildly successful development of git makes them both look shrewd.
- nunez 3y ago
  git was wildly successful, yes, but it still has hints of what esr was talking about. once you step out of the clone/checkout/commit/push loop, git is extremely thorny for people who aren't "with it."
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    Where I program, we still use subversion and, looking at the costs of migration, we decided not to move to git. The time and effort needed for that migration just couldn't be justified.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      I wish that my employer would ditch git and go back to subversion. The use of git is a source of unending problems.
      - treadmill 3y ago
        Care to explain a few?
        JohnFen 3y ago
        Most of the problems fall into two categories: merging and branching, both of which have repeatedly led to angst and strife to various degrees. There's also the problem of squashing leading to a loss of historical data, and we can't seem to get people to stop squashing. Subversion results in far fewer problems in these areas. Given that, in our use case, git brings nothing that subversion doesn't, I would greatly prefer to use the system that leads to less issues and greater productivity. Please note that I'm not saying that git is bad in some kind of overarching sense. It just brings trouble in our use case.
JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Ok I have to recalibrate my concept of a 'gifted programmer'. I thought it meant more than simply 'successful open source coder'. I've tried to change kernel code that guy wrote. It's awful, with a capital A. Not a scrap of design notes or comments or procedure description, nothing. Unorganized modules with no pattern or sense. My favorite: the variable name 'page' used in five different senses in the same module. For a page directory, a page table, an entry in a page table, an actual page of memory. Plus some indirections to the same, not distinguished in any way. May as well have used variable names i,j,k for all the help that was. Never learned any kind of abstractions, spent half a lifetime denigrating all advances in programming since 'C'. No, on second thought I'm not going to rethink my definition of 'gifted programmer'.
- muttled 3y ago
  That would all track with the linked piece. He basically says "you're smart, and you're relying on that instead of taking the time to learn a way to do it that works best when the code has to be shared." I think that's what he means by "gifted". Innate ability that can propel you through personal greenfield projects, but hits a wall when you're not the only cook in the kitchen.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
renox 3y ago
I remember the drama around 'Linus doesn't scale', I think that's what ESR is talking about. But then Linus used BitKeeper then created git..
mock-possum 3y ago
… shit I wonder whether my current aversion to frameworks like Tailwind and React are my own brand of gifted programmer syndrome?

46 points by fdeage 3y ago

Wow, in 2000. I wonder what impact/response this elicited? Does someone have a mailing list link so I can read through the reply tree?

rjh29 3y ago
https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/index.html#221 https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0008.2/index.html... Linus didn't reply. To be fair ESR's whole argument is "You're smart but inexperienced so you don't understand my point yet" which doesn't exactly have a rebuttal.
joezydeco 3y ago
Well, Linus eventually came around when it came to version control. He...went and wrote his own.
- sgarland 3y ago
  As one does.

htrp 3y ago

He's not wrong! Thankfully a lot of other people steppped in to help support Linus and maxe linux the ecosystem it is today.

coldtea 3y ago
There were already tons of contributors to Linux kernel in 2000. It was one of the most hyped times (head of the dotcom bust? half of it was major investing in everything Linux, from distributions to desktop environments - yes, there was a time when something like a Gnome file manager would get major VC backing).

Attummm 3y ago

That was a real, stern-talking-to email but beautifully written.

gregw2 3y ago

I have gotten jaded about ESR, but this post was spot on and had an awkward but effective mix of respect, flattery, warning/rebuke, care. Linus's subsequent wildly successful development of git makes them both look shrewd.

nunez 3y ago
git was wildly successful, yes, but it still has hints of what esr was talking about. once you step out of the clone/checkout/commit/push loop, git is extremely thorny for people who aren't "with it."
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  Where I program, we still use subversion and, looking at the costs of migration, we decided not to move to git. The time and effort needed for that migration just couldn't be justified.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I wish that my employer would ditch git and go back to subversion. The use of git is a source of unending problems.
    - treadmill 3y ago
      Care to explain a few?
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        Most of the problems fall into two categories: merging and branching, both of which have repeatedly led to angst and strife to various degrees. There's also the problem of squashing leading to a loss of historical data, and we can't seem to get people to stop squashing. Subversion results in far fewer problems in these areas. Given that, in our use case, git brings nothing that subversion doesn't, I would greatly prefer to use the system that leads to less issues and greater productivity. Please note that I'm not saying that git is bad in some kind of overarching sense. It just brings trouble in our use case.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago

Ok I have to recalibrate my concept of a 'gifted programmer'. I thought it meant more than simply 'successful open source coder'. I've tried to change kernel code that guy wrote. It's awful, with a capital A. Not a scrap of design notes or comments or procedure description, nothing. Unorganized modules with no pattern or sense. My favorite: the variable name 'page' used in five different senses in the same module. For a page directory, a page table, an entry in a page table, an actual page of memory. Plus some indirections to the same, not distinguished in any way. May as well have used variable names i,j,k for all the help that was. Never learned any kind of abstractions, spent half a lifetime denigrating all advances in programming since 'C'. No, on second thought I'm not going to rethink my definition of 'gifted programmer'.

muttled 3y ago
That would all track with the linked piece. He basically says "you're smart, and you're relying on that instead of taking the time to learn a way to do it that works best when the code has to be shared." I think that's what he means by "gifted". Innate ability that can propel you through personal greenfield projects, but hits a wall when you're not the only cook in the kitchen.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

renox 3y ago

I remember the drama around 'Linus doesn't scale', I think that's what ESR is talking about. But then Linus used BitKeeper then created git..

mock-possum 3y ago

… shit I wonder whether my current aversion to frameworks like Tailwind and React are my own brand of gifted programmer syndrome?