4 ms·

It needs to be banned. The environment is orders of magnitude more important than the dollar.

winter-day 3y ago
I honestly cannot understand why crypto exists - and i'm repulsed by everyone I know in that field who works at companies like solano, etc.
- tmn 3y ago
  Would you like to understand?
- whalesalad 3y ago
  crypto in and of itself is a really cool and valuable tool. the hype bubble around it and subsequent power/environmental consequences are not good - but the tech is cool and should be appreciated. blockchain is also a great tool for the right usecases (distributed ledger)
  - danbruc 3y ago
    the hype bubble around it and subsequent power/environmental consequences [...] The energy consumption is not the result of anything, it is a fundamental design element. [1] To reach a meaningful consensus, you have to give all participating users equal or at least similar voting power. But Bitcoin does not want a central database of users which opens the door for Sybil attacks - you can just invent an essentially unlimited number of users out of thin air and have them vote the way you want. The solution to this problem in case of Bitcoin is to tie votes to computing resources for calculating hashes. While you can invent users out of thin, you can not invent computing power out of thin air. This gives each user voting power in proportion to the amount of money they are willing to invest in computing resources. Not really equal voting power for all users but close enough in practice. If miners would not burn enormous amounts of energy, anyone could come along and influence or alter the transaction history or just mine empty blocks and with that block all transactions. [1] For Bitcoin and similar proof of work systems, there are alternatives.
- xcv123 3y ago
  > I honestly cannot understand why crypto exists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe https://www.usinflationcalculator.com https://www.usinflationcalculator.com
  - ikiris 3y ago
    Bold strategy posting about hyperinflation while crypto has more volatility than Marjorie Taylor Greene
    - xcv123 3y ago
      What's strange about it? The creator of Bitcoin could not predict that volatility. The inflation of fiat currency is one major reason why crypto exists. Bitcoin has a 21 million BTC supply limit. That's the point. However even with the volatility, it's way more stable than the Venezuelan currency. Crypto is widely used in Venezuela.
      - nickthegreek 3y ago
        Being better than Venezuelan currency isn’t the slam dunk point you might you think it is.
        xcv123 3y ago
        It is for the Venezuelans. 28 million people were completely fucked by hyperinflation. Life savings destroyed. The peer to peer network enabled them to circumvent the banking system, which is why BTC was created, according to the original paper. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - kman82 3y ago
- StanislavPetrov 3y ago
  You can't understand why people want to be free from the shackles of government issued money? Arguments can reasonably be made about the viability of crypto, the stability and how useful it actually is, but it should be crystal clear why many people are desperate for mediums of exchange and stores of value outside of the government-controlled medium (crypto, gold or otherwise).
  - lern_too_spel 3y ago
    That governments can't control access to cryptocurrencies and gold is the biggest fantasy that crypto rubes believe. That people in developed countries don't want governments to control money to claw it back from fraudsters is the second biggest fantasy.
    - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
      >That governments can't control access to cryptocurrencies and gold is the biggest fantasy that crypto rubes believe. Cryptocurrencies are math. Governments cannot control math, as much as authoritarians wish they could. >That people in developed countries don't want governments to control money to claw it back from fraudsters is the second biggest fantasy. The assumption that most people in developed countries want government to "control money" is delusional at best. There are certainly many people in developed countries who want the government to control money, control speech, control political discourse and control everything else - but there are just as many who oppose all of that.
      - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
        Governments can't stop you doing maths, but they can make it very difficult to either do it at scale, or convert your maths back into government issued currency.
      - lern_too_spel 3y ago
        > Cryptocurrencies are math. Governments cannot control math, as much as authoritarians wish they could. And there's the misconception. Trading government money for cryptocurrency is subject to regulation. Do you think you can hack the President's communication and send it to Putin because it's math? Do you think you can set the interest rate on a loan to 500% because it's math? > The assumption that most people in developed countries want government to "control money" is delusional at best. How strange then that every single developed democracy has implemented it. I must have just imagined the entire field of tort law and people clamoring for relief from the courts.
- DrFalkyn 3y ago
  Some people like the idea of a digital asset that is not under the control of any central authority
  - yashg 3y ago
    So that it cannot be confiscated?
    - aeternum 3y ago
      Anything can be confiscated but whether you're a country or an individual, the US gov can freeze your USD account with a keystroke. With crypto it's at least harder than that.
  - namaria 3y ago
    Cryptocurrencies are dominated by whales and big miners. It sounds more like 'under the control of an authority that cannot be held accountable'.
tmn 3y ago
What would you specifically propose?
- makotech221 3y ago
  He's specifically proposing a ban lol
  - tmn 3y ago
    Clever. Should it be on all proof of work? Is it applied only if the computing is being done within the country doing the ban?
    - pgsandstrom 3y ago
      I love this argument. "Can you define EXACTLY what you want to ban"? I'd say a significant part of all criminalized activities can't be EXACTLY defined. Somehow we still manage.
johndevor 3y ago
Do you rail against fiat as well?
- audunw 3y ago
  Fiat as opposed to crypto currency? Crypto is the most fiat currency imaginable. I know crypto bros tries to redefine reality to trick people into thinking crypto is somehow tied to real tangible value, but it’s just not. Non-fiat currency is physically tied to the creation of real-world value, like say mining gold which has thousands of real-world applications. Traditional fiat currencies are fundamentally designed to be a proxy for real world value. In a well designed system it’s most of its creation is tied to debt issues to, say a gold mine or an oil well or solar farm. Cryptocurrency is - in its utter insanity - fundamentally tied to the destruction of physical value. That is, burning electricity while creating nothing useful. So: more fiat than fiat. Another huge step removed from the creation of real physical valuables. Traditional currencies are far more efficient and a basic necessity for the economy to function at all. Cryptocurrency is fundamentally unsuited to become a real currency by its very design. Every one I’ve seen so far has been made by people who seem to lack even the most basic understanding of what the main origin of currency is. (Hint: it’s not metal coins..)
  - johndevor 3y ago
    > Traditional fiat currencies are fundamentally designed to be a proxy for real world value. The US went off the gold standard in 1971. It's all just bullshit paper now. I'm not sure why you're talking about something that doesn't even exist today. I'd love it if "traditional fiat" currencies existed as you describe, but they don't.
    - rcxdude 3y ago
      You seem to have completely misunderstood the poster. Gold-standard US-dollar is not a fiat currency, present-day US dollar is a 'traditional fiat'.
      - 3y ago

I honestly cannot understand why crypto exists - and i'm repulsed by everyone I know in that field who works at companies like solano, etc.

tmn 3y ago
Would you like to understand?
whalesalad 3y ago
crypto in and of itself is a really cool and valuable tool. the hype bubble around it and subsequent power/environmental consequences are not good - but the tech is cool and should be appreciated. blockchain is also a great tool for the right usecases (distributed ledger)
- danbruc 3y ago
  the hype bubble around it and subsequent power/environmental consequences [...] The energy consumption is not the result of anything, it is a fundamental design element. [1] To reach a meaningful consensus, you have to give all participating users equal or at least similar voting power. But Bitcoin does not want a central database of users which opens the door for Sybil attacks - you can just invent an essentially unlimited number of users out of thin air and have them vote the way you want. The solution to this problem in case of Bitcoin is to tie votes to computing resources for calculating hashes. While you can invent users out of thin, you can not invent computing power out of thin air. This gives each user voting power in proportion to the amount of money they are willing to invest in computing resources. Not really equal voting power for all users but close enough in practice. If miners would not burn enormous amounts of energy, anyone could come along and influence or alter the transaction history or just mine empty blocks and with that block all transactions. [1] For Bitcoin and similar proof of work systems, there are alternatives.
xcv123 3y ago
> I honestly cannot understand why crypto exists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe https://www.usinflationcalculator.com https://www.usinflationcalculator.com
- ikiris 3y ago
  Bold strategy posting about hyperinflation while crypto has more volatility than Marjorie Taylor Greene
  - xcv123 3y ago
    What's strange about it? The creator of Bitcoin could not predict that volatility. The inflation of fiat currency is one major reason why crypto exists. Bitcoin has a 21 million BTC supply limit. That's the point. However even with the volatility, it's way more stable than the Venezuelan currency. Crypto is widely used in Venezuela.
    - nickthegreek 3y ago
      Being better than Venezuelan currency isn’t the slam dunk point you might you think it is.
      - xcv123 3y ago
        It is for the Venezuelans. 28 million people were completely fucked by hyperinflation. Life savings destroyed. The peer to peer network enabled them to circumvent the banking system, which is why BTC was created, according to the original paper. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- kman82 3y ago
StanislavPetrov 3y ago
You can't understand why people want to be free from the shackles of government issued money? Arguments can reasonably be made about the viability of crypto, the stability and how useful it actually is, but it should be crystal clear why many people are desperate for mediums of exchange and stores of value outside of the government-controlled medium (crypto, gold or otherwise).
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  That governments can't control access to cryptocurrencies and gold is the biggest fantasy that crypto rubes believe. That people in developed countries don't want governments to control money to claw it back from fraudsters is the second biggest fantasy.
  - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
    >That governments can't control access to cryptocurrencies and gold is the biggest fantasy that crypto rubes believe. Cryptocurrencies are math. Governments cannot control math, as much as authoritarians wish they could. >That people in developed countries don't want governments to control money to claw it back from fraudsters is the second biggest fantasy. The assumption that most people in developed countries want government to "control money" is delusional at best. There are certainly many people in developed countries who want the government to control money, control speech, control political discourse and control everything else - but there are just as many who oppose all of that.
    - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
      Governments can't stop you doing maths, but they can make it very difficult to either do it at scale, or convert your maths back into government issued currency.
    - lern_too_spel 3y ago
      > Cryptocurrencies are math. Governments cannot control math, as much as authoritarians wish they could. And there's the misconception. Trading government money for cryptocurrency is subject to regulation. Do you think you can hack the President's communication and send it to Putin because it's math? Do you think you can set the interest rate on a loan to 500% because it's math? > The assumption that most people in developed countries want government to "control money" is delusional at best. How strange then that every single developed democracy has implemented it. I must have just imagined the entire field of tort law and people clamoring for relief from the courts.
DrFalkyn 3y ago
Some people like the idea of a digital asset that is not under the control of any central authority
- yashg 3y ago
  So that it cannot be confiscated?
  - aeternum 3y ago
    Anything can be confiscated but whether you're a country or an individual, the US gov can freeze your USD account with a keystroke. With crypto it's at least harder than that.
- namaria 3y ago
  Cryptocurrencies are dominated by whales and big miners. It sounds more like 'under the control of an authority that cannot be held accountable'.

tmn 3y ago

What would you specifically propose?

makotech221 3y ago
He's specifically proposing a ban lol
- tmn 3y ago
  Clever. Should it be on all proof of work? Is it applied only if the computing is being done within the country doing the ban?
  - pgsandstrom 3y ago
    I love this argument. "Can you define EXACTLY what you want to ban"? I'd say a significant part of all criminalized activities can't be EXACTLY defined. Somehow we still manage.

johndevor 3y ago

Do you rail against fiat as well?

audunw 3y ago
Fiat as opposed to crypto currency? Crypto is the most fiat currency imaginable. I know crypto bros tries to redefine reality to trick people into thinking crypto is somehow tied to real tangible value, but it’s just not. Non-fiat currency is physically tied to the creation of real-world value, like say mining gold which has thousands of real-world applications. Traditional fiat currencies are fundamentally designed to be a proxy for real world value. In a well designed system it’s most of its creation is tied to debt issues to, say a gold mine or an oil well or solar farm. Cryptocurrency is - in its utter insanity - fundamentally tied to the destruction of physical value. That is, burning electricity while creating nothing useful. So: more fiat than fiat. Another huge step removed from the creation of real physical valuables. Traditional currencies are far more efficient and a basic necessity for the economy to function at all. Cryptocurrency is fundamentally unsuited to become a real currency by its very design. Every one I’ve seen so far has been made by people who seem to lack even the most basic understanding of what the main origin of currency is. (Hint: it’s not metal coins..)
- johndevor 3y ago
  > Traditional fiat currencies are fundamentally designed to be a proxy for real world value. The US went off the gold standard in 1971. It's all just bullshit paper now. I'm not sure why you're talking about something that doesn't even exist today. I'd love it if "traditional fiat" currencies existed as you describe, but they don't.
  - rcxdude 3y ago
    You seem to have completely misunderstood the poster. Gold-standard US-dollar is not a fiat currency, present-day US dollar is a 'traditional fiat'.
    - 3y ago