4 ms·

I wonder what is the significance of it being a salt rather than a pure lsd? For d-amphetamine making it a salt produces an effect similar to delayed release.

by DenisM 3y ago

I wonder what is the significance of it being a salt rather than a pure lsd? For d-amphetamine making it a salt produces an effect similar to delayed release. The result is sold as a “more modern” ADHD treatment Vyvanse. So is this achieving similar effect? Flattening the curve, so to speak? Or maybe it’s just to distance itself from the recreational LSD culture?

isoprophlex 3y ago
Usually these salts remain chemically stable for longer periods of time. In the case of alkaloids, they become protonated (here LSD-with-a-proton, a positively charged particle; the tartrate being the negative counterion) and as such are thus less susceptible to oxidation. Can't steal negative charge from something that doesn't have it. And with LSD freebase that's not an unnecessary luxury, as it isn't the most stable against decomposition. To answer the question... probably this is the most stable formulation to get it into a pharmacy? I guess like you say, not blatantly calling it LSD helps image building too. With vyvanse, that's actually something else: not a salt but an amino acid covalently bound to amphetamine. This gives a much stronger bond than between tartrate and lsd ions in the salt, one that can be hydrolysed slowly in the gut to produce the active drug. LSD tartrate doesn't have a similar slow release property.
0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
If nothing else, by being chemically distinct from LSD, it remains a crime to have LSD, but not the salt prescription form.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  Not sure why this is downvoted, since this has been a working legal loophole for decades. For example, 1cP-LSD is completely unscheduled in the US right now, despite breaking down into pure LSD once consumed (at only slightly reduced potency). It's already banned in several other countries though. Though, I am sure prescription drugs will always be legal with a prescription, assuming the prescription itself is legal. Even if this were counted as the Schedule I drug LSD that can't be prescribed, it'll probably get moved to Schedule II or III before any actual prescriptions are given out. So anyone who ever gets such a prescription in-hand will always be safe.
jdietrich 3y ago
> I wonder what is the significance of it being a salt rather than a pure lsd? The salt is patentable.
- sterlind 3y ago
  No, Sandoz produced LSD tartarate back in the '50s. It's the common salt form of LSD. The freebase is lipophilic, and is typically dissolved in ethanol, while the salt form is water-soluble, and can be soaked into blotter paper or sublingual tablets. Amazingly, I found a Swiss clinical trial from 2021 (!) comparing the pharmacokinetics of the freebase vs. tartarate in human subjects: https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04865653 https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04865653 Switzerland is (free)based.
  - jdietrich 3y ago
    MM-120 is proprietary, because they've isolated the d isomer.
philwelch 3y ago
Adderall and Dexedrine are already amphetamine salts. Vyvanse has an extra delayed release mechanism beyond that.
Scoundreller 3y ago
The API in Vyvanase isn't a salt of straight amphetamine though. It has a covalent bond to a group that your body/metabolism needs to (I guess enzymatically) break down to release the amphetamine. More of a prodrug.

by DenisM 3y ago

isoprophlex 3y ago

Usually these salts remain chemically stable for longer periods of time. In the case of alkaloids, they become protonated (here LSD-with-a-proton, a positively charged particle; the tartrate being the negative counterion) and as such are thus less susceptible to oxidation. Can't steal negative charge from something that doesn't have it. And with LSD freebase that's not an unnecessary luxury, as it isn't the most stable against decomposition. To answer the question... probably this is the most stable formulation to get it into a pharmacy? I guess like you say, not blatantly calling it LSD helps image building too. With vyvanse, that's actually something else: not a salt but an amino acid covalently bound to amphetamine. This gives a much stronger bond than between tartrate and lsd ions in the salt, one that can be hydrolysed slowly in the gut to produce the active drug. LSD tartrate doesn't have a similar slow release property.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago

If nothing else, by being chemically distinct from LSD, it remains a crime to have LSD, but not the salt prescription form.

LoganDark 3y ago
Not sure why this is downvoted, since this has been a working legal loophole for decades. For example, 1cP-LSD is completely unscheduled in the US right now, despite breaking down into pure LSD once consumed (at only slightly reduced potency). It's already banned in several other countries though. Though, I am sure prescription drugs will always be legal with a prescription, assuming the prescription itself is legal. Even if this were counted as the Schedule I drug LSD that can't be prescribed, it'll probably get moved to Schedule II or III before any actual prescriptions are given out. So anyone who ever gets such a prescription in-hand will always be safe.

jdietrich 3y ago

> I wonder what is the significance of it being a salt rather than a pure lsd? The salt is patentable.

sterlind 3y ago
No, Sandoz produced LSD tartarate back in the '50s. It's the common salt form of LSD. The freebase is lipophilic, and is typically dissolved in ethanol, while the salt form is water-soluble, and can be soaked into blotter paper or sublingual tablets. Amazingly, I found a Swiss clinical trial from 2021 (!) comparing the pharmacokinetics of the freebase vs. tartarate in human subjects: https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04865653 https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04865653 Switzerland is (free)based.
- jdietrich 3y ago
  MM-120 is proprietary, because they've isolated the d isomer.

philwelch 3y ago

Adderall and Dexedrine are already amphetamine salts. Vyvanse has an extra delayed release mechanism beyond that.

Scoundreller 3y ago

The API in Vyvanase isn't a salt of straight amphetamine though. It has a covalent bond to a group that your body/metabolism needs to (I guess enzymatically) break down to release the amphetamine. More of a prodrug.