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The idea of an electric vehicle is brilliant. I'd love a fully electric van, being able to tap into a 100-200kWh battery would be a game changer for camping. F

by throwaway22032 3y ago

The idea of an electric vehicle is brilliant. I'd love a fully electric van, being able to tap into a 100-200kWh battery would be a game changer for camping. For me though, EVs just aren't actually better yet. Tesla came close but long term their reliability and vendor lock-in issues mean that they're never going to work like a 10-20 year old Civic, Corolla, Transit etc which ruins the value proposition. I have no doubt that they'll get there, but they have to be a strict improvement on a 30 year old ICE car first.

stavros 3y ago
Better at what? They're much better at not emitting CO2, for example. Also, why do you need a throwaway to say that you prefer ICE to EV?
- winphone1974 3y ago
  Better for non-commuters I Believe, especially in North America. And aren't they all throw aways?
  - loloquwowndueo 3y ago
    He meant the HN account, not the car. Lol
- throwaway22032 3y ago
  Better at their primary purpose. I don't prefer ICE to EV. I actually prefer electric vehicles. When Ford release an electric Transit with the range and payload of my diesel one, and when the cost of electricity at a rapid charger is comparable in the UK, I'll switch in a heartbeat. It'll be brilliant.
- credit_guy 3y ago
  > They're much better at not emitting CO2, for example. They are better, but not necessarily much better. A Toyota Prius Prime can get 39 to 44 miles in electric mode [1]. That's good enough for the average person's daily commute or weekend errands, which constitute the vast majority of the miles driven by people. The end result could be a reduction in emissions by 95%. Not 100%, true. But that 100% reduction of an EV is mostly a shifting of emissions to some central power plant, and since electricity is fungible, one can't really say that that particular power plant is solar. In other words, the difference between the overall emissions of an EV vs a good plug-in hybrid (like the Prius Prime) is negligible. [1] https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/features/mpg_other_price/1235/1237/1239 https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/features/mpg_other_price/1...
  - stavros 3y ago
    So we agree that we should switch to 100% EVs and replace all CO2-emitting power plants with renewables, excellent.
    - credit_guy 3y ago
      I'm not sure if your reply is snarky or not. I think it is. The Toyota Prius Prime exists today. Switching to renewables is something that is happening today, but we'll be lucky if it will be done in 20 years.
    - ProllyInfamous 3y ago
      I would say perhaps 80% EV would "be ideal" for at least another decade [for all those less than 1 mile from home trips everybody is always driving]. But 20% of us would rather not wait around for recharging on our longer roadtrips / commutes, in which case a hybrid drivetrain just makes sense. ---- Related to "snarkiness" : let's agree in no absolutes... nothing is 100%, except death and taxes.
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    If you have a plug available to recharge your commute every day, then you're probably fine with an EV. If you don't then you'd probably prefer an occasional fast charge rather than being limited to slow charging.
  - zamfi 3y ago
    …isn’t that 95% for the Prius also shifting emissions, though? That doesn’t seem like a point in favor of the hybrid. One can’t say that a particular energetic electron was energized by a solar plant, sure. But one can look at new power deployment and see that almost all of it is non-CO2-emitting, a large majority is renewable, and more than half of it is solar. [1] Over the past decade the US has turned over roughly 1-2% of generation capacity annually, and grown by about 1% annually [2]—but those numbers are accelerating: in 2023 we grew about 6%. [1] Totally plausible that we’re at the start of an S-curve here; the grid is certainly not getting dirtier, and with an expected life of > 10 years an EV purchased today will be quite a bit cleaner by EOL based on charging power source alone. [1]: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy/chart-nearly-all-new-us-power-plants-built-in-2024-will-be-clean-energy https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy/chart-near... [2]: https://www.publicpower.org/resource/americas-electricity-generating-capacity https://www.publicpower.org/resource/americas-electricity-ge...
ProllyInfamous 3y ago
>Tesla came close but long term their reliability... I have joked, since 2016, that Tesla will be among the largest donators of intellectual property [to other vehicle manufacturers incorporating their ideas]; but that ultimately hybrid drivetrains like Toyota's are a better solution for most long-distance travelers. ---- Dear Tesla: Thanks for all the R&D. Infamously yours, —Prolly
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  If you thinks those open sourced patents, those are honeypots for OEMs. If you will use them, you are automatically giving Tesla your patents for free. Nobody used Tesla patents.
  - ProllyInfamous 3y ago
    BYD [a Chinese company, largest EV manufacturer in the world] does not care about US intellectual property controls. I agree with you that Tesla's "open patents" are a honeypot, but my statement above goes far beyond just patents or just US jurisdiction.
vessenes 3y ago
America doesn't really agree with you; The Tesla model Y was the second-best selling car in the US in 2023, after the RAV4 and well ahead of the Camry. I own a variety of cars, and do still have some ICE cars, but for almost every use case, I prefer my model Y. As to reliability, n=4 narrative, I've owned a Tesla of one sort or the other since 2018 or so, and two Nissan Leafs since 2015 and here's the full list of repairs and dealer visits I've needed: Tesla Model 3 Dual motor charge port won't auto close after open. Nissan Leaf Gen 1 window button needed replacing. That's it. By comparison my Toyota vans have had roughly ten service calls / dealer visits in the same period. If you read through most reports on Tesla reliability, generally initial build quality is the main complaint. Electric cars are mechanically super simple, and this is a daily benefit for any driver of an EV. To my mind the 'strict improvement' rule at this point needs to be doing a lot of work when you compare to a 1998 civic. Do you include smell, window seals, oil consumption, power, lane departure warnings, pre-braking in case of emergency, highway passing acceleration, ...?
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > As to reliability, n=4 narrative, I've owned a Tesla of one sort or the other since 2018 or so, and two Nissan Leafs since 2015 and here's the full list of repairs and dealer visits I've needed: Tesla Model 3 Dual motor charge port won't auto close after open. Nissan Leaf Gen 1 window button needed replacing. That's it. By comparison my Toyota vans have had roughly ten service calls / dealer visits in the same period. The relevant data here would be how valuable are Teslas after 20 years and 250k miles? Because when I buy a Toyota, I am pretty confident I will still be able to use it, or sell it for a decent amount.
  - nixass 3y ago
    Here's an example of that. https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1b0ae5a/tesla_tragedy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1b0ae5a/tesla_tr... How many oil changes is that? lol
- throwaway22032 3y ago
  I think you've done well. Personally my Model S had all sorts of issues, I sold it before the warranty period ended as I knew that I didn't want to pay dealer prices for everything and deal with the bottlenecks. I just can't see a Model S actually being on the road when it's 15-20 years old because no-one is going to want to pay Tesla prices to maintain it. The relevant comparison is with a ~2020 Civic i.e. when both cars are 20 years old, which one will still be going.
manishsharan 3y ago
My next car will be a Tesla but not for the ICE vs Electric reasons. I am in Toronto and car theft is very common here as our Ports have very lax security. Toyotas top the list for stolen vehicles. And Teslas are the least stolen vehicle. I wish Toyotas were harder to steal.
- sgerenser 3y ago
  Are Toyotas just the most stolen because they have the most market share (share of cars on the road, not necessarily sales?).
  - manishsharan 3y ago
    Toyotas are seen globally as the most reliable cars. Unfortunately, that makes them #1 on car thieves' wish list.
    - ProllyInfamous 3y ago
      The idea of a car thief maintaining "his" stolen vehicle brought me a gentle morning sensible.chuckle ... so thank you =D
Salgat 3y ago
The lack of a transmission, not needing to go to a gas station, and no exhaust (particular the highly targeted catalytic convertor) has become invaluable to me. After buying an all electric vehicle, the only reason I'd ever touch a non-fully electric vehicle is for cross-country road trips up to Colorado.

stavros 3y ago

Better at what? They're much better at not emitting CO2, for example. Also, why do you need a throwaway to say that you prefer ICE to EV?

winphone1974 3y ago
Better for non-commuters I Believe, especially in North America. And aren't they all throw aways?
- loloquwowndueo 3y ago
  He meant the HN account, not the car. Lol
throwaway22032 3y ago
Better at their primary purpose. I don't prefer ICE to EV. I actually prefer electric vehicles. When Ford release an electric Transit with the range and payload of my diesel one, and when the cost of electricity at a rapid charger is comparable in the UK, I'll switch in a heartbeat. It'll be brilliant.
credit_guy 3y ago
> They're much better at not emitting CO2, for example. They are better, but not necessarily much better. A Toyota Prius Prime can get 39 to 44 miles in electric mode [1]. That's good enough for the average person's daily commute or weekend errands, which constitute the vast majority of the miles driven by people. The end result could be a reduction in emissions by 95%. Not 100%, true. But that 100% reduction of an EV is mostly a shifting of emissions to some central power plant, and since electricity is fungible, one can't really say that that particular power plant is solar. In other words, the difference between the overall emissions of an EV vs a good plug-in hybrid (like the Prius Prime) is negligible. [1] https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/features/mpg_other_price/1235/1237/1239 https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/features/mpg_other_price/1...
- stavros 3y ago
  So we agree that we should switch to 100% EVs and replace all CO2-emitting power plants with renewables, excellent.
  - credit_guy 3y ago
    I'm not sure if your reply is snarky or not. I think it is. The Toyota Prius Prime exists today. Switching to renewables is something that is happening today, but we'll be lucky if it will be done in 20 years.
  - ProllyInfamous 3y ago
    I would say perhaps 80% EV would "be ideal" for at least another decade [for all those less than 1 mile from home trips everybody is always driving]. But 20% of us would rather not wait around for recharging on our longer roadtrips / commutes, in which case a hybrid drivetrain just makes sense. ---- Related to "snarkiness" : let's agree in no absolutes... nothing is 100%, except death and taxes.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  If you have a plug available to recharge your commute every day, then you're probably fine with an EV. If you don't then you'd probably prefer an occasional fast charge rather than being limited to slow charging.
- zamfi 3y ago
  …isn’t that 95% for the Prius also shifting emissions, though? That doesn’t seem like a point in favor of the hybrid. One can’t say that a particular energetic electron was energized by a solar plant, sure. But one can look at new power deployment and see that almost all of it is non-CO2-emitting, a large majority is renewable, and more than half of it is solar. [1] Over the past decade the US has turned over roughly 1-2% of generation capacity annually, and grown by about 1% annually [2]—but those numbers are accelerating: in 2023 we grew about 6%. [1] Totally plausible that we’re at the start of an S-curve here; the grid is certainly not getting dirtier, and with an expected life of > 10 years an EV purchased today will be quite a bit cleaner by EOL based on charging power source alone. [1]: https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy/chart-nearly-all-new-us-power-plants-built-in-2024-will-be-clean-energy https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/clean-energy/chart-near... [2]: https://www.publicpower.org/resource/americas-electricity-generating-capacity https://www.publicpower.org/resource/americas-electricity-ge...

ProllyInfamous 3y ago

>Tesla came close but long term their reliability... I have joked, since 2016, that Tesla will be among the largest donators of intellectual property [to other vehicle manufacturers incorporating their ideas]; but that ultimately hybrid drivetrains like Toyota's are a better solution for most long-distance travelers. ---- Dear Tesla: Thanks for all the R&D. Infamously yours, —Prolly

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
If you thinks those open sourced patents, those are honeypots for OEMs. If you will use them, you are automatically giving Tesla your patents for free. Nobody used Tesla patents.
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago
  BYD [a Chinese company, largest EV manufacturer in the world] does not care about US intellectual property controls. I agree with you that Tesla's "open patents" are a honeypot, but my statement above goes far beyond just patents or just US jurisdiction.

vessenes 3y ago

America doesn't really agree with you; The Tesla model Y was the second-best selling car in the US in 2023, after the RAV4 and well ahead of the Camry. I own a variety of cars, and do still have some ICE cars, but for almost every use case, I prefer my model Y. As to reliability, n=4 narrative, I've owned a Tesla of one sort or the other since 2018 or so, and two Nissan Leafs since 2015 and here's the full list of repairs and dealer visits I've needed: Tesla Model 3 Dual motor charge port won't auto close after open. Nissan Leaf Gen 1 window button needed replacing. That's it. By comparison my Toyota vans have had roughly ten service calls / dealer visits in the same period. If you read through most reports on Tesla reliability, generally initial build quality is the main complaint. Electric cars are mechanically super simple, and this is a daily benefit for any driver of an EV. To my mind the 'strict improvement' rule at this point needs to be doing a lot of work when you compare to a 1998 civic. Do you include smell, window seals, oil consumption, power, lane departure warnings, pre-braking in case of emergency, highway passing acceleration, ...?

lotsofpulp 3y ago
> As to reliability, n=4 narrative, I've owned a Tesla of one sort or the other since 2018 or so, and two Nissan Leafs since 2015 and here's the full list of repairs and dealer visits I've needed: Tesla Model 3 Dual motor charge port won't auto close after open. Nissan Leaf Gen 1 window button needed replacing. That's it. By comparison my Toyota vans have had roughly ten service calls / dealer visits in the same period. The relevant data here would be how valuable are Teslas after 20 years and 250k miles? Because when I buy a Toyota, I am pretty confident I will still be able to use it, or sell it for a decent amount.
- nixass 3y ago
  Here's an example of that. https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1b0ae5a/tesla_tragedy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1b0ae5a/tesla_tr... How many oil changes is that? lol
throwaway22032 3y ago
I think you've done well. Personally my Model S had all sorts of issues, I sold it before the warranty period ended as I knew that I didn't want to pay dealer prices for everything and deal with the bottlenecks. I just can't see a Model S actually being on the road when it's 15-20 years old because no-one is going to want to pay Tesla prices to maintain it. The relevant comparison is with a ~2020 Civic i.e. when both cars are 20 years old, which one will still be going.

manishsharan 3y ago

My next car will be a Tesla but not for the ICE vs Electric reasons. I am in Toronto and car theft is very common here as our Ports have very lax security. Toyotas top the list for stolen vehicles. And Teslas are the least stolen vehicle. I wish Toyotas were harder to steal.

sgerenser 3y ago
Are Toyotas just the most stolen because they have the most market share (share of cars on the road, not necessarily sales?).
- manishsharan 3y ago
  Toyotas are seen globally as the most reliable cars. Unfortunately, that makes them #1 on car thieves' wish list.
  - ProllyInfamous 3y ago
    The idea of a car thief maintaining "his" stolen vehicle brought me a gentle morning sensible.chuckle ... so thank you =D

Salgat 3y ago

The lack of a transmission, not needing to go to a gas station, and no exhaust (particular the highly targeted catalytic convertor) has become invaluable to me. After buying an all electric vehicle, the only reason I'd ever touch a non-fully electric vehicle is for cross-country road trips up to Colorado.