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Toyota's hybrid-first strategy is delivering big profits
- throw0101d 3y agoToyota has been doing hybrids for over twenty-five years now: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_(XW10) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_(XW10)
- reducesuffering 3y agoEverytime someone complains cars are too expensive in the US, they need to be reminded that '05-'09 Prius can be purchased for ~$6k that will get 42 mpg and another 50-200k miles on them, with rock bottom registration and insurance prices.
- Solvency 3y agoNot everyone wants to drive around a baby blue monstrosity with the turning radius of the Titanic. Even if it's $6k.
- AmVess 3y agoLMAO, baby blue is the color that popped to mind when I remembered those first gen cars. At least the new Prius looks cool.
- reducesuffering 3y agoThat’s fine, you just give up the right to complain about cost of living when you’re driving around a leased BMW
- timbit42 3y agoWhat has the turning radius of the Titanic? The Prius doesn't.
- sarimkx 3y agoAmazing business and technology!
- throwaway22032 3y agoThe idea of an electric vehicle is brilliant. I'd love a fully electric van, being able to tap into a 100-200kWh battery would be a game changer for camping. For me though, EVs just aren't actually better yet. Tesla came close but long term their reliability and vendor lock-in issues mean that they're never going to work like a 10-20 year old Civic, Corolla, Transit etc which ruins the value proposition. I have no doubt that they'll get there, but they have to be a strict improvement on a 30 year old ICE car first.
- stavros 3y agoBetter at what? They're much better at not emitting CO2, for example. Also, why do you need a throwaway to say that you prefer ICE to EV?
- winphone1974 3y agoBetter for non-commuters I Believe, especially in North America. And aren't they all throw aways?
- loloquwowndueo 3y agoHe meant the HN account, not the car. Lol
- throwaway22032 3y agoBetter at their primary purpose. I don't prefer ICE to EV. I actually prefer electric vehicles. When Ford release an electric Transit with the range and payload of my diesel one, and when the cost of electricity at a rapid charger is comparable in the UK, I'll switch in a heartbeat. It'll be brilliant.
- credit_guy 3y ago> They're much better at not emitting CO2, for example. They are better, but not necessarily much better. A Toyota Prius Prime can get 39 to 44 miles in electric mode [1]. That's good enough for the average person's daily commute or weekend errands, which constitute the vast majority of the miles driven by people. The end result could be a reduction in emissions by 95%. Not 100%, true. But that 100% reduction of an EV is mostly a shifting of emissions to some central power plant, and since electricity is fungible, one can't really say that that particular power plant is solar. In other words, the difference between the overall emissions of an EV vs a good plug-in hybrid (like the Prius Prime) is negligible. [1] https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/features/mpg_other_price/1235/1237/1239 https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/features/mpg_other_price/1...
- ProllyInfamous 3y agoI just purchased a 2021 Camry Hybrid and it is a dream. It isn't "fast," but "quick" — and it gets 50+mpg! When I learned that 2025+ Camry's are ALL Hybrids, it just made sense...
- vsskanth 3y agoIt's due to their reputation for rock-solid reliability, better torque and MPG with hybrids and making sure a hybrid option is available across all vehicle sizes. Typically Honda would compete with Toyota with similar offerings but their hybrids aren't matching up to Toyota yet in MPG and you can't get it in large SUVs. So now you have a situation where nobody is competing with Toyota because everyone's busy making EVs. True or not, it's now assumed you can drive a Toyota for 150k miles without breaking a sweat. Toyota Sienna and Toyota Grand Highlander are three row vehicles rated at 36 MPG. These cars are selling out before they even hit the dealer lot.
- winphone1974 3y agoEverything you say is true, but where the financial success comes from is leveraging this (well earned) reputation to support high, no negotiation, take it or leave it prices, and often mandatory financing. We'll see if the market continues to support fixed pricing and turning away cash buyers.
- vsskanth 3y agoTheir financial success comes from a lack of competition from other OEMs. They spent a lot of time refining that hybrid powertrain. There is simply no direct competition to the Toyota Grand Highlander Hybrid, so they charge whatever they want
- Solvency 3y agoIt's too bad that car is absolutely garish looking. Why can't the world produce a single EV that looks like the new Bronco, a Wrangler, or even the Defender 90?
- AmVess 3y agoGenerally, Toyota buyers don't like to stick out in a crowd. They do have a new, reasonably priced Land Cruiser coming out, which is styled after their older, very popular Land Cruisers. I would'nt be surprised if they come out with a 2-door version of such to fill the long vacated slot left by the FJ Cruiser.
- avidphantasm 3y agoGiven this hybrid strategy (which seems sensible for now given constraints on battery supply chains) I would love to see Toyota offer first-party upgrades to better battery technology (as they become more affordable), and adding plug-in capabilities for existing models with lower energy density batteries (NiMH). Dealers would love this too. IRA incentivizes should cover retrofit costs. This would have greater carbon mitigation in the short- to mid-term than a pure EV approach.
- daft_pink 3y agoI think it's essentially, because Toyota is the best at hybrid technology that many people who want hybrids are only willing to purchase Toyotas. I don't think this is duplicatable by the auto industry as a whole. I'm not going to buy something as complicated as a hybrid from General Motors, most American car companies or some European brand, when they can't even build very reliable combustion vehicles. Imagine what it would cost to repair such a vehicle from those manufacturers. It's more about Toyota knowing their strengths and successfully delivering a lineup that honors those strengths than some strategy the other manufacturers are missing. Personally when I consider buying a Prius Prime or a Model 3 for a similar price with a shorter lead time, I'm going to buy the Model 3 every time.
- vel0city 3y agoIt's not even just that people are only willing to buy Toyota hybrids. In some places in the US Toyotas are just about the only hybrids one can easily buy. Good luck buying a Ford hybrid if you're not in California, practically none are allotted to my area.
- a_gnostic 3y agoSo how about an Edison?
- gilbetron 3y agoWhy would you get a Tesla over a Toyota, Toyota crushes them on reliability. As a bonus, you aren't supporting a narcissistic asshat ;)
- decafninja 3y agoAs much as I agree with your sentiment on Elon, some people don’t want an appliancemobile even if it means sacrificing some amount of reliability. For example, I’d personally take a Jaguar or Alfa Romeo (two brands particularly famous for lack of reliability) over most Toyotas short of one of their niche models like their GRs or old school SUVs.
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- seydor 3y agoWhat's the smallest diesel generator that can charge an electric car to 20% (in less than a day)?
- mattmaroon 3y agoHow much time does it have to do so?
- RuggedPineapple 3y agoThat's the real question, because with enough time you could do it with a hand cranked dynamo.
- fragmede 3y agothey should outfit vehicles with bicycle pedals inside so you can charge the car while you drive it, and get exercise too!
- PaulKeeble 3y agoA typical mid range EV (say 250 miles) is about 50 KWH. So to just get 20% you only need 10KWh. The smallest generators are around 12KG and put out about 1.1KW but they tend to only run a couple of hours due to small tanks. About double that at 22KG you have something with more reasonable run time and puts out 2KW (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panana-Aokaidun-Portable-Inverter-Generator/dp/B0CFLD55RW https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panana-Aokaidun-Portable-Inverter-G...) and within its typical 6 hour runtime is going to get you 20% and in a 24 hour cycle with refills gets you nearly a full EV. This suggests to charge the car fully you would need about 4 x 4 Litres of fuel, that is 16KG of fuel and 22KG of generator your carting around in the back of the car, its basically a persons extra of weight for one refill which would take about day to complete.
- greenavocado 3y agoUsing the power consumption figure of 87.8 kWh at the wall for a Model 3 with this methodology https://electrly.com/ev-charging-guide/tesla/model-3/how-many-kwh-to-charge-a-tesla-3 https://electrly.com/ev-charging-guide/tesla/model-3/how-man... 20% or 17.6 kWh can be attained in 9 hours at 2000 watts output with a Honda eu2200i generator. This is the largest generator the average person can hold like a briefcase. Larger generators are insanely heavy.
- JSR_FDED 3y agoThis is one of those monumental strategic decisions that with the benefit of hindsight seems obvious. No charging infrastructure means no EV market (simplifying). Boeing and Airbus had a similar situation - increasing passenger numbers to Airbus meant “we need to build giant planes like the A380” (now essentially dead). To Boeing it meant “we better build planes that can service smaller airports because they’ll become increasingly important”. Mind boggling how the wrong interpretation of the market situation leads to decade-defining trajectories for companies.
- reducesuffering 3y ago> No charging infrastructure Quite the hyperbole https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=57.17077853489991%2C-41.961915250000004%2C17.159647255843748%2C-156.57129025&zoom=5&filters=store%2Cservice%2Csupercharger%2Cdestination%20charger%2Cbodyshop%2Cparty%2Cself%20serve%20demo%20drive%2Cnacs https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=57.17077853489991%2C...
- nixass 3y agoNow do the map with petrol stations
- reducesuffering 3y agoI never said it was equal. But it’s plenty to make cross country trips 5 years ago and it’s a correction to the ludicrous claim of “no charging infrastructure”
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoNow let's do any non-tesla charging network - Far and few between, ones that exist usually require stupid applications to even start talking to you, if they are not outright broken.
- Salgat 3y agoTesla started the Supercharger network over a decade ago as a rather small company. A non-tesla charging network is absolutely feasible if automakers would agree on a standard and make a coordinated effort to build one.
- xgdgsc 3y agoOnly profitable when BYD hasn 't started exporting its way more advanced hybrids.
- blisterpeanuts 3y agoHow are BYD's hybrids (all PHEV now, I believe) more advanced than Toyota's? I'm also curious as to BYD's build quality and longevity of components. Toyota is a known quantity; their vehicles typically run for years with few needs other than routine maintenance. I've read & watched lots of very positive reviews of BYD hybrids and full electrics based on a few hours' use, or maybe a few days. These cars do look pretty good and are competitively priced in most markets, but they have to be compared apples-to-apples, over multiple years, to get a sense of what it's like to own one.
- ProllyInfamous 3y agoI own a Toyota Hybrid (2021 Camry, which I love), and have never even seen a BYD vehicle (in person)... But with entry-level pricing at less than half of Toyota's least-expensive products, BYD is surely better than halfway "more advanced than Toyota's." Price point is such an important thing when delivering any product, and if a BYD vehicle lasts even half as long as a Toyota, I'd purchase one.
- JSR_FDED 3y agohttps://archive.is/RLl2B https://archive.is/RLl2B
- _fat_santa 3y agoI think it's not just only their hybrid strategy, but the reputation they have built as company that builds rock solid reliable cars. I know many people that basically only ever buy Toyota strictly because of that reputation. Heck even when I was looking at an offroad capable SUV, I only considered Toyota models based strictly off their reputation for reliability (ended up with a 4Runner, great car). It's good to offer consumers choice and all but IMO the real reason Toyota is consistently successful is their decades long reputation for being a reliable brand is paying dividends.
- greenavocado 3y agoI always consider Hondas first because their interior fit and finish is superior when new, but the sheer size of the online support groups for dealing with complex expensive mechanical failures like electrical system gremlins and transmission failures alerted me to the scale of the problems. BMW might be more reliable than Honda these days
- AmVess 3y agoIn Honda's defense, they've recognized their quality was slipping, and have been moving to fix these issues. Their transmission issues stemmed from the ZF built 9-speed, which has been a problem for every car manufacturer to use it. They've since replaced that unit with their own designed and manufactured 10-speed transmission. My girlfriend had a 2018 CR-V for 5 years, 0 issues. She sold it back to the dealer for $1500 less than what she paid for it. I agree with you on interior quality and fit and finish. Hers was perfect inside and out. Body panel gaps were robot perfect. Decent quality materials on the interior, too. My new Highlander, in comparison, looks like it was assembled by drunk toddlers and its interior is of Hasbro quality materials.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago>My new Highlander, in comparison, looks like it was assembled by drunk toddlers and its interior is of Hasbro quality materials. I feel like Toyota is intentionally doing this to push people up to the Lexus brand.
- 1-6 3y agoI’m on the fence about Hybrids now. Past generation Priuses were over-engineered marvels but it can’t be said today. Toyota’s Hybrid reputation was built on top of the Prius so they had to build a lightweight car that would go past 200k miles and then some to show the world that it’s reliable. I own two Priuses so here are my thoughts: My 2nd generation model is going strong at 190k miles even after surviving a cat theft and a cell degenerated. I was able to buy a ebay NiMH cell for $33 and replace one out of 28. But for a long time, I was still able to drive the car around with a degraded battery because it essentially is a Yaris Atkinson engine. Newer hybrids however, are using smaller engines and a Lithium Ion pack. A Li-Ion pack would have degraded quicker in the hot sun where I usually park my car and with more energy cycling. I’m not sure how repairable Li-Ion packs are now and Ebaying for them is a bad idea. The 3rd generation had some refinements done but the car I own has been getting reports that it isn’t as reliable as its predecessor. I don’t have enough miles on mine to give you all a good anecdote. Would I still buy a Toyota Hybrid today? It depends. On a compact car, yes. For Toyota, it was easier to prove you have the right tech on a small compact like a Corolla or Camry. But for larger cars, the jury is still out there as they now offer a Hybrid option for almost every vehicle in their lineup. If my only option was between a turbo or a hybrid, I would get the latter option any day. But I would stay away from large SUVs and people haulers with small engines—which is harder to do these days because of emissions standards. The power split device (hybrid synergy drive) has been absolutely reliable. That type of transmission alone is actually worth the Hybrid option and more of the reason why Toyotas can get to 200k miles trouble-free, not merely the engine. When someone says ‘Toyota Hybrid’, it’s really the transmission that deserves the accolades. The transmission is actually is what breaks before engines in most cars. Toyota has this one figured out unlike most other car manufacturers. Toyota engines don’t die by going out with a bang like other cars. But, it’ll start burning motor oil with fuel and damage your catalytic converter. For most consumers, that’s good enough for reliability. People consider it totally acceptable that a smog technician tells you that your car cannot be driven over a mechanic.
- greenavocado 3y agoIf you want a Toyota Sienna you have no choice but to get the hybrid. More concerning is the extreme complexity of the A25A dynamic force engine included with the hybrid (and now even many non hybrid drive trains). Maybe they found a way to make it reliable.
- natch 3y agoCould it be the profits come from all the service in the later years? I have owned Toyotas and they are great for a long time and then it’s cha-ching for the dealers, the mechanics, and anyone (cough, Toyota) collecting profits directly or indirectly from parts manufacturing.
- magic_man 3y agoUnless you own a house I don't think it makes sense to get an electric. I barely like sitting 5 minutes at the super charger which at least for me was giving like 180kw and then it just drops off a bunch, and now the super chargers are getting more full.
- goalieca 3y agoCharging is going to be a big challenge. The cities are moving to medium density which still requires cars but also means street parking and appartement blocks with large parking lots. Higher density areas like downtown condos also don’t make it easy. A few hundred cars and maybe a dozen level 2 chargers.
- elorant 3y agoOne reason for that is that they have a hybrid version for pretty much every model they sell, at least in Europe. From superminies to SUVs, all lines have a hybrid version included. Add the fact that their engines are super smooth and they produce the most reliable cars and you can see why it pays dividends while other manufacturers struggle to modernize their fleet.
- ZeroGravitas 3y agoThis is probably good for society. Ideally we'd already be at the stage where all sales were EV, PHEV or hybrid and working towards all EV but sadly many other manufacturers fumbled both the hybrid, PHEV and EV transition. But given the insane comments coming from their leadership it seems likely that they're going to get sideswiped by Chinese EVs (and PHEVs) flooding the market at some point and simply not see it coming. So good for society in the short term but bad for Toyota (and Japan) in the medium term.
- PaulKeeble 3y agoNow we have hybrids that can be charged from a charger you get a short range EV for all the local trips which dominate most peoples car usage and its still got a backup engine to take away the range anxiety. Hybrids in practice are going to drastically reduce emissions so long as their batteries are large enough and chargeable off the grid where often overnight power is quite green depending on where you are in the world. But in the end the answer is just better charging infrastructure and a bit more power density for less money, it has to be if we want a habitable planet.
- rsyring 3y ago> if we want a habitable planet And what do you expect from the billions of people in developing countries that aren't going to give a rat's tail about future habitability because they are mostly focused on current survival? Is EV or hybrids and better power and charging infrastructure are the answer there? I think the only long term solution to a habitable planet is a technical solution that gives us a scalable way to fix the problems emissions cause. I'm not saying to not try and stem the tide where it's possible. But we are not going to stem that tide globally. I don't have the answer but I hope there are really smart people who see this writing on the wall and are dedicated to finding that long term global solution.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoThey are cornering the hybrid market in the gap years between ICE and pure BEV. The only problem with this strategy is they will be seriously behind on pure BEV (4th and 5th generation). When Tesla or anyone finally delivers a cheap 1000km EV, it's game over for hybrid sales. Maybe a hybrid diesel truck would still be appropriate then. Maybe not.
- tbrownaw 3y ago> cheap 1000km EV As in it goes that far on a single charge? That seems like a lot of batteries, and a lot of charging power if you can't keep it topped off at home. Is there any particular reason to expect such a thing to be cheaper than something just using a bottle of liquid hydrocarbons for energy?
- bryanlarsen 3y agoAnybody who can build a reliable hybrid should be able to build a solid EV. 1000km of range is not a major selling point for any passenger ICE car. On an EV it is a lot of added weight and expense. Much more important than any range over 500km or so is fast, reliable and ubiquitous charging infrastructure. We don't have that yet, but we are making progress.
- zzzeek 3y agoim sure their service departments at dealerships love still having a huge gravytrain of ICE maintenance / oil/ transmission / belts / exhaust etc issues continue.
- ProllyInfamous 3y agoDon't forget about tires and batteries, my fellow non sequitur =D
- zzzeek 3y agoand brakes, though regenerative braking takes a lot of the pressure of those too
- vgivanovic 3y agoI bought a Hyundai Tucson plugin hybrid after a Toyota dealer wanted $8000 over list for an equivalent RAV4.
- coffeedan 3y agoGet back to me in 10 years, when it has 230k miles on it and hasn’t needed a single major repair - like my 2013 Sienna. I’ve got several friends who own independent repair shops, and all agree that if everyone owned a Toyota they would have no business.