4 ms·

>Under what theory is EU supposed to sit back and watch a bordering country get invaded and not pass that country intelligence? Has EU, or more aptly the compr

>Under what theory is EU supposed to sit back and watch a bordering country get invaded and not pass that country intelligence? Has EU, or more aptly the comprising countries thereof, declared war? The only thing I hate more than warmongering are proxy wars. I'm all for Ukraine winning, because if they lose then Putin and Russia are vindicated in warmongering as a proper form of diplomacy, but I'm sick and tired of proxy wars. As an aside: Yes, as an American I stand with the Republicans in denying further aid to Ukraine if we're going to continue doing the same thing. If we're going to lend more aid, either we punt the money figures up a few orders of magnitudes or we send in American boots to settle it ourselves. No more halfassed "aid" that only prolongs the war indefinitely and enlarges the suffering of civilians.

victorbjorklund 3y ago
Has China, Iran, Belarus, etc decleared war? All of them help Russia. Are those doing proxy wars?
allendoerfer 3y ago
> I am against help, because we do not help enough. And he is using a website made for the smarter kids. This election is going to be golden.
- vasco 3y ago
  > And he is using a website made for the smarter kids Being in a group that accepts people that say "this group is smart" annoys me to no end as the lowest form of circle jerk. Specially when it's not even true. There's no IQ test to access this site, there's no merit on the part of the users, the merit is on the part of the moderation, since the user pool is the same as any public website written in english.
resoluteteeth 3y ago
The definition of "proxy war" is "a war instigated by a major power which does not itself become involved". Regardless of the scale or nature of the aid, since Russia is directly involved, the Ukraine war can only be a "proxy war" if you believe it was instigated by the EU/NATO/the US, which is essentially assuming the Russian talking point that it was somehow forced to invade Ukraine because it felt threatened. I disagree with that position and if you do to please do not describe it as a "proxy war" even if you think that other countries providing a limited amount of aid rather than getting actively involved will cause the war to be prolonged.
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Who made that definition? There can be proxy wars in some regions between nations that are at the same time involved in open wars against each other in other regions. This happened a lot in WWII.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    That looks like the Oxford Dictionary's definition. That checks out, the poster is correct. It makes sense, helping an ally who is attacked doesn't sound like a proxy war to me.
toberoni 3y ago
This is not a proxy war, neither EU or US are interested in Russian territory. They made it clear that no Western weapons are to be used outside Ukraine. This is defensive support for a sovereign state, not a scheme to topple Putin (who is the sole aggressor in this conflict without any formal declaration of war). Furthermore, I’m having a hard time understanding your reasoning regarding US aid. Currently, Russia is paying an enormous price while the US risks no lifes and gets to send its old weapons to Ukraine. This might not be a winning strategy for Ukraine, but it sure sounds better than an open war between 2 major nuclear powers which puts billions of lifes at risk or draconian Russian occupation of large parts of Ukraine.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >neither EU or US are interested in Russian territory. But the west is interested in depleting and weakening Russia, which we can accomplish by prolonging this war as long as we can by supplying just enough aid to keep Ukraine from losing but not so much that Ukraine would win. >Furthermore, I’m having a hard time understanding your reasoning regarding US aid. You know what is worse than war? An unnecessarily protracted war. The longer a war goes on, the exponentially worse the civilians caught in the crossfire suffer. I want Ukraine to win for reasons already stated, but I also do not want to see this war go on any longer than it has to. The west is more than opulent enough to supply enough equipment to end this war sooner, and if we go as far as to send in our own boots we can end this war overnight. But we don't. Instead we provide just enough aid to keep Ukraine afloat. It's now over 2 years since Russia began its invasion. As an aside, the military industrial complex is making a killing (pun intended) selling new gear to replace the ones donated to Ukraine. What the fuck. So no, no more aid unless enough is provided to end this war in Ukraine's favor as soon as fucking possible. I do not agree to aid that is any less and would keep prolonging this war at great cost to civilians.
  - toberoni 3y ago
    I'm not so sure that your theory is a fact. There are a lot of plausible explanations for the course of this war. I follow this conflict closely and personally I think the West never had a coherent strategy and there would have been better ways to decimate the Russians. I still don't see how letting Russia conquer half of Ukraine minimizes civilian cost. Russia has a long history of deadly deportations and it has already established systematic torture in occupied Ukranian territory. A landlocked Ukraine will be very hard to stabilize. And will Russia stop or will it continue in Moldova, Georgia or Kazakhstan? There's also the question if the link between Western aid and warmongering holds up. All aggression comes from Russia and it alone is responsible for this destruction. As long as the victims, the Ukraine people, ask for help to defend themselves the West should deliver. The current aid is not enough but it surely is better than fighting Russia alone.
zarzavat 3y ago
A proxy war is when you have two countries who are not otherwise affected by a particular war, sponsoring opposing sides for geopolitical advantage. Syria was a proxy war. Ukraine is not. Invading a neighboring country is a direct threat to the EU’s security, as evidenced by the large number of Ukrainian refugees that the EU now has to support. Had Putin succeeded in installing a figurehead regime in Kyiv, what is to say he wouldn’t have started marching on Moldova as well? Europe has seen this before. Declaring war is a bit passé nowadays anyway.
GJim 3y ago
> I stand with the Republicans in denying further aid to Ukraine Meanwhile, the UK has opened to Ukrainian refugees (3 families in our street have accommodated refugees) and has pledged unconditional support. We learnt our lesson that appeasing dictators, like Putin, does not work. You should be ashamed of yourself.

victorbjorklund 3y ago

Has China, Iran, Belarus, etc decleared war? All of them help Russia. Are those doing proxy wars?

allendoerfer 3y ago

> I am against help, because we do not help enough. And he is using a website made for the smarter kids. This election is going to be golden.

vasco 3y ago
> And he is using a website made for the smarter kids Being in a group that accepts people that say "this group is smart" annoys me to no end as the lowest form of circle jerk. Specially when it's not even true. There's no IQ test to access this site, there's no merit on the part of the users, the merit is on the part of the moderation, since the user pool is the same as any public website written in english.

resoluteteeth 3y ago

The definition of "proxy war" is "a war instigated by a major power which does not itself become involved". Regardless of the scale or nature of the aid, since Russia is directly involved, the Ukraine war can only be a "proxy war" if you believe it was instigated by the EU/NATO/the US, which is essentially assuming the Russian talking point that it was somehow forced to invade Ukraine because it felt threatened. I disagree with that position and if you do to please do not describe it as a "proxy war" even if you think that other countries providing a limited amount of aid rather than getting actively involved will cause the war to be prolonged.

carlosjobim 3y ago
Who made that definition? There can be proxy wars in some regions between nations that are at the same time involved in open wars against each other in other regions. This happened a lot in WWII.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  That looks like the Oxford Dictionary's definition. That checks out, the poster is correct. It makes sense, helping an ally who is attacked doesn't sound like a proxy war to me.

toberoni 3y ago

This is not a proxy war, neither EU or US are interested in Russian territory. They made it clear that no Western weapons are to be used outside Ukraine. This is defensive support for a sovereign state, not a scheme to topple Putin (who is the sole aggressor in this conflict without any formal declaration of war). Furthermore, I’m having a hard time understanding your reasoning regarding US aid. Currently, Russia is paying an enormous price while the US risks no lifes and gets to send its old weapons to Ukraine. This might not be a winning strategy for Ukraine, but it sure sounds better than an open war between 2 major nuclear powers which puts billions of lifes at risk or draconian Russian occupation of large parts of Ukraine.

Dalewyn 3y ago
>neither EU or US are interested in Russian territory. But the west is interested in depleting and weakening Russia, which we can accomplish by prolonging this war as long as we can by supplying just enough aid to keep Ukraine from losing but not so much that Ukraine would win. >Furthermore, I’m having a hard time understanding your reasoning regarding US aid. You know what is worse than war? An unnecessarily protracted war. The longer a war goes on, the exponentially worse the civilians caught in the crossfire suffer. I want Ukraine to win for reasons already stated, but I also do not want to see this war go on any longer than it has to. The west is more than opulent enough to supply enough equipment to end this war sooner, and if we go as far as to send in our own boots we can end this war overnight. But we don't. Instead we provide just enough aid to keep Ukraine afloat. It's now over 2 years since Russia began its invasion. As an aside, the military industrial complex is making a killing (pun intended) selling new gear to replace the ones donated to Ukraine. What the fuck. So no, no more aid unless enough is provided to end this war in Ukraine's favor as soon as fucking possible. I do not agree to aid that is any less and would keep prolonging this war at great cost to civilians.
- toberoni 3y ago
  I'm not so sure that your theory is a fact. There are a lot of plausible explanations for the course of this war. I follow this conflict closely and personally I think the West never had a coherent strategy and there would have been better ways to decimate the Russians. I still don't see how letting Russia conquer half of Ukraine minimizes civilian cost. Russia has a long history of deadly deportations and it has already established systematic torture in occupied Ukranian territory. A landlocked Ukraine will be very hard to stabilize. And will Russia stop or will it continue in Moldova, Georgia or Kazakhstan? There's also the question if the link between Western aid and warmongering holds up. All aggression comes from Russia and it alone is responsible for this destruction. As long as the victims, the Ukraine people, ask for help to defend themselves the West should deliver. The current aid is not enough but it surely is better than fighting Russia alone.

zarzavat 3y ago

A proxy war is when you have two countries who are not otherwise affected by a particular war, sponsoring opposing sides for geopolitical advantage. Syria was a proxy war. Ukraine is not. Invading a neighboring country is a direct threat to the EU’s security, as evidenced by the large number of Ukrainian refugees that the EU now has to support. Had Putin succeeded in installing a figurehead regime in Kyiv, what is to say he wouldn’t have started marching on Moldova as well? Europe has seen this before. Declaring war is a bit passé nowadays anyway.

GJim 3y ago

> I stand with the Republicans in denying further aid to Ukraine Meanwhile, the UK has opened to Ukrainian refugees (3 families in our street have accommodated refugees) and has pledged unconditional support. We learnt our lesson that appeasing dictators, like Putin, does not work. You should be ashamed of yourself.