3 ms·

the non-profit board had nothing to win over the greed revolt? except revulsion.

by fsckboy 3y ago

tptacek 3y ago
Where by "greed" you mean "the prospect that anybody's equity would be worth anything".
- Jensson 3y ago
  That is greed, everyone who works for OpenAI already had a ton of money since they pay so much, demanding more at the cost of the non-profit mission is greed. I am fine with people being greedy, but don't say it isn't greed.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    If you say so. I'm just saying: it's not surprising that labor beat ownership here.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      So, almost like, gasp, union?
      - Jensson 3y ago
        In this case the "union" plundered the non-profit. Just because workers did it doesn't make it good.
        stale2002 3y ago
        Non profits (or companies in general) are nothing with their workers. A non profit is subject to labor markets just as well. They can't just go back on their implicit payment deals, in this case the payment of equity, and expect that nobody will complain. Those employees worked under terms of employment that included the expectation that the equity would be worth something. If openAI didn't like that, then they should have paid them in cash, without the equity. Its not plundering to use your own labor and market power to collectively bargain for yourself.
  - apantel 3y ago
    “Greed” is one of those words where the definition doesn’t really tell you where the line is: “intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.” (Oxford via Google) Who doesn’t feel “intense and selfish desire” for money? Who doesn’t feel that going into a performance review? It’s human nature to feel this feeling, if that’s what we want to call “greed”.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      > It’s human nature to feel this feeling, if that’s what we want to call “greed”. Yes, greed is human nature, just like lust etc. We value when people suppress such feelings, but we know everyone has them.
      - apantel 3y ago
        It’s not that clear-cut. “Greed” as defined this way is one of the main drives making people do things. They go out into the world and exert themselves in order to acquire wealth, power, and renown. It’s a core part of what has produced civilization from out of the darkness of total animal-like ignorance. The inventors, makers, statesmen, pioneers, explorers of history… what do you think was motivating them? What do you think has kept life procreating on this planet in the face of overwhelming hardship? Lust. I think it’s one-eye-blind to demonize greed, lust, or any other part of human nature. Those drives are inseparable from us being here in our current state, living reasonably well, conversing over the internet on phones and computers.
        ants_everywhere 3y ago
        I agree that greed plays a role in civilization, but I think your read on human history is overly simplistic in an important way. A great deal of what has driven civilization forward are the people who are driven by curiosity. People like Archimedes, Plato, Newton, Einstein. Not to mention the millions of curious nameless folks who improved the boat, the spear, the wheel, the book. Folks like RMS without whom I doubt we'd have anything like the current open source ecosystem including Linux. These tend to be people who are not only curious, but whose sense of greed is lower than the average. Without these folks, it's not clear to me that humanity ratchets forward in progress. If you just have greed and lust, the steady state would be something like power politics of states warring against each other with swords for thousands of years. History has gotten stuck in those states many times, and when we finally break out it's typically the curiosity-driven folks who give the greed-driven folks a reason to invest their money in something other than raising an army for yet another war of honor.

the non-profit board had nothing to win over the greed revolt? except revulsion.

tptacek 3y ago

Where by "greed" you mean "the prospect that anybody's equity would be worth anything".

Jensson 3y ago
That is greed, everyone who works for OpenAI already had a ton of money since they pay so much, demanding more at the cost of the non-profit mission is greed. I am fine with people being greedy, but don't say it isn't greed.
- tptacek 3y ago
  If you say so. I'm just saying: it's not surprising that labor beat ownership here.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    So, almost like, gasp, union?
    - Jensson 3y ago
      In this case the "union" plundered the non-profit. Just because workers did it doesn't make it good.
      - stale2002 3y ago
        Non profits (or companies in general) are nothing with their workers. A non profit is subject to labor markets just as well. They can't just go back on their implicit payment deals, in this case the payment of equity, and expect that nobody will complain. Those employees worked under terms of employment that included the expectation that the equity would be worth something. If openAI didn't like that, then they should have paid them in cash, without the equity. Its not plundering to use your own labor and market power to collectively bargain for yourself.
- apantel 3y ago
  “Greed” is one of those words where the definition doesn’t really tell you where the line is: “intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.” (Oxford via Google) Who doesn’t feel “intense and selfish desire” for money? Who doesn’t feel that going into a performance review? It’s human nature to feel this feeling, if that’s what we want to call “greed”.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    > It’s human nature to feel this feeling, if that’s what we want to call “greed”. Yes, greed is human nature, just like lust etc. We value when people suppress such feelings, but we know everyone has them.
    - apantel 3y ago
      It’s not that clear-cut. “Greed” as defined this way is one of the main drives making people do things. They go out into the world and exert themselves in order to acquire wealth, power, and renown. It’s a core part of what has produced civilization from out of the darkness of total animal-like ignorance. The inventors, makers, statesmen, pioneers, explorers of history… what do you think was motivating them? What do you think has kept life procreating on this planet in the face of overwhelming hardship? Lust. I think it’s one-eye-blind to demonize greed, lust, or any other part of human nature. Those drives are inseparable from us being here in our current state, living reasonably well, conversing over the internet on phones and computers.
      - ants_everywhere 3y ago
        I agree that greed plays a role in civilization, but I think your read on human history is overly simplistic in an important way. A great deal of what has driven civilization forward are the people who are driven by curiosity. People like Archimedes, Plato, Newton, Einstein. Not to mention the millions of curious nameless folks who improved the boat, the spear, the wheel, the book. Folks like RMS without whom I doubt we'd have anything like the current open source ecosystem including Linux. These tend to be people who are not only curious, but whose sense of greed is lower than the average. Without these folks, it's not clear to me that humanity ratchets forward in progress. If you just have greed and lust, the steady state would be something like power politics of states warring against each other with swords for thousands of years. History has gotten stuck in those states many times, and when we finally break out it's typically the curiosity-driven folks who give the greed-driven folks a reason to invest their money in something other than raising an army for yet another war of honor.