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Why is it that non-macbooks are full of odd hardware compromises? For example, as follows from the video review, this laptop has huge screen bezels, bottom-firi

Why is it that non-macbooks are full of odd hardware compromises? For example, as follows from the video review, this laptop has huge screen bezels, bottom-firing speakers, and a crappy microphone. Why isn't there a company that would produce nearly macbook-quality laptops (albeit without the M-series ARM processor), but reliably linux-friendly?

arnaudsm 3y ago
The latest Lenovo Yoga Pro 7 on AMD 7840U are the closest thing you can get to a Macbook, with near-M3 performance and decent Linux support, while being much cheaper. My only regret is the soldered RAM.
- jwells89 3y ago
  How’s heat/noise and battery life? Those have been consistent issues in non-Apple laptop shopping.
  - neogodless 3y ago
    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Yoga-Pro-7-14-review-The-almost-perfect-ultrabook-with-AMD-Zen-3.708599.0.html#toc-6 https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Yoga-Pro-7-14-review-Th... > The new Yoga Pro 7 is extremely quiet in daily use; the fans are usually not spinning when the laptop is running basic tasks. During gaming, you can expect around 36-42 dB(A) of noise from the device, though this depends on CPU utilisation. Noise levels only went as high as 36.2 dB(A) in our stress test and remained constant at that. The Yoga Pro 7 reached a much louder 47.3 dB(A) in High Performance mode, which we think is unnecessary. Our review unit didn't give off any other electronic noises. > Our measurements indicate that the new AMD-based Yoga Pro 7 is highly efficient and uses a paltry 7.9 watts at idle with screen brightness turned all the way up and refresh rate set to 90Hz. There also aren't any issues under load: you can expect power usage to be around 60 watts during gaming. > The Yoga Pro 7 had a really strong showing, lasting nearly 10 hours at 60Hz and 9 hours at 90Hz even at max brightness. When brightness was adjusted to 150 cd/m² (equivalent to 81% of max brightness on our review unit), the device even managed to hit 13 hours in the Wi-Fi test and 15 hours during video playback.
    - trelane 3y ago
      That looks like it's based on running Windows. Those results don't necessarily translate for Linux users on the same hardware.
toyg 3y ago
Because Apple works its supply chain hard. It's not a coincidence that their CEO comes from that side of the business.
- oldpersonintx 3y ago
  [dead]
jonnat 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale It would cost substantially more for a small-scale company to produce a laptop with the quality of MacBooks than it costs Apple. That cost difference would have to be passed to the consumer.
- kube-system 3y ago
  Additionally, a lot of these niche laptop brands don't even manufacture their own laptops because they're not even at the scale where designing and manufacturing a board and chassis would be financially viable. Many are white-label or ODM laptops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_design_manufacturer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_design_manufacturer
ant6n 3y ago
Major macbook compromise: glossy screen, no option to make it matte (there isnt even an official matte screen protector that is not for privacy in their store, and it isnt clear whether a glued on screen will damage the coating, or not fit when the macbook is closed). More compromises: lack of ports, missing basic functionality in OS, very high cost for ram and ssd.
jwells89 3y ago
Closest I’m aware of are ThinkPads, but be aware that build quality is not equal between model lines, that some models have less-Linux-friendly chipsets, and that some models come with surprisingly underwhelming display panels for their price (e.g. they’re dim). Most of the X1 lineup should be pretty solid though.
- StableAlkyne 3y ago
  It's such a shame they got sold off to Lenovo, a Chinese company with a history of privacy and security issues. Those things were built like tanks back when IBM owned the brand. My intro to Unix as a kid was installing a mail ordered copy of Ubuntu onto one! Survived years of physical abuse and reinstalls, and still boots up fine almost 20 years later
trelane 3y ago
> Why isn't there a company that would produce nearly macbook-quality laptops (albeit without the M-series ARM processor), but reliably linux-friendly? Because hackintoshes are much, much, much less common than someone slapping Linux on some random bit of kit. And nobody complains about OSX breaking or not running perfectly on non-Apple hardware. As evidenced by the term "hackintosh" itself. It's very hard for a Linux hardware company to gain any ability to innovate when so much of the market goes elsewhere. IMHO, it's nigh on miraculous that System76 is as great as it is. I would dearly love for them to be able to do more, but the reality is that most folks complain that it's not exactly what they want, and/or not exactly at the price point they want, and give their money to someone else. (Then they complain that Linux doesn't support their new Windows hardware adequately!) The smartest thing Apple ever did was force you to but Apple kit to run Apple software. Had they not, they'd have suffered the same fate. And we'd be discussing how much OSX sucks because it doesn't support the consumer Dell models adequately. (If OSX even continued to exist.)
- cogman10 3y ago
  > The smartest thing Apple ever did was force you to but Apple kit to run Apple software. Smart? Nah that was just the common practice at the rise of the Mac. IBM was somewhat insane for making such an open platform for anyone to play in. Yet, had they not done that we would not be having this discussion. DEC, Amiga, Osborne, the Java machine, etc. all were basically just locked up ecosystems based on proprietary software not built for tinkering.
  - harkinian 3y ago
    And early 90s to mid 2000s was an era of especially standardized hardware. Every box was x86+RAM+mobo+HDD slapped together. With single CPU cores not getting much faster, hardware is becoming more specific again, making tight integration more advantageous.
    - trelane 3y ago
      It still wasn't that great back then. Even APM was wonky. Even back then, there was a tonne of firmware, and bugs got worked around in (Windows-only) drivers and INF files. The amount of firmware has since exploded, and it's gotten much more complex to boot (pun intended.) I think that's more the problem than specialized hardware.
diffeomorphism 3y ago
For the same reason MacBooks have lots of compromises: you just happen to agree with them. You cannot get higher than 60Hz in the air. No oled. Medium screen resolution. Okay-ish webcam only. Everything soldered. Heavier and bulkier than competition. No cuda, limited external screens,...
- harkinian 3y ago
  They're compromises that most people agree with, though. Like what's worse, having a merely 60hz display or not being audible in video calls? No CUDA or battery dies mid-day? Few laptop ports or horrible trackpad? Especially trackpads. Almost nobody makes good trackpads except Apple. I don't get why.
  - diffeomorphism 3y ago
    Nah, not even apple agrees with them. See mini led, VRR on their pro devices and their supposedly upcoming oled models.
CoolCold 3y ago
> reliably linux-friendly That's gonna be interesting to see, one-size-fits-all laptop for Linux. Watching how disputes on THE TRUE AND THE ONLY EDITOR still ongoing, Vi/Vim/NeoVIM crowd vs EMACS adepts (VSCode users not to be considered as REAL GUYS of course, just frontend devs or even traitors of GNU), do you expect those crowds even can agree on should be there blobs/proprietary firmware, SecureBoot and TPM/Pluton used in such laptops? I seriously doubt.
- azangru 3y ago
  It does not matter. As long as a laptop reliably works with one linux distro, without any hidden/proprietary shenanigans, it works with any of them. It is then up to the end user to set up any linux they want, without fear that the webcam, or the speakers, or the thermals, or the sleep, or the touchpad will refuse to work.

arnaudsm 3y ago

The latest Lenovo Yoga Pro 7 on AMD 7840U are the closest thing you can get to a Macbook, with near-M3 performance and decent Linux support, while being much cheaper. My only regret is the soldered RAM.

jwells89 3y ago
How’s heat/noise and battery life? Those have been consistent issues in non-Apple laptop shopping.
- neogodless 3y ago
  https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Yoga-Pro-7-14-review-The-almost-perfect-ultrabook-with-AMD-Zen-3.708599.0.html#toc-6 https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Yoga-Pro-7-14-review-Th... > The new Yoga Pro 7 is extremely quiet in daily use; the fans are usually not spinning when the laptop is running basic tasks. During gaming, you can expect around 36-42 dB(A) of noise from the device, though this depends on CPU utilisation. Noise levels only went as high as 36.2 dB(A) in our stress test and remained constant at that. The Yoga Pro 7 reached a much louder 47.3 dB(A) in High Performance mode, which we think is unnecessary. Our review unit didn't give off any other electronic noises. > Our measurements indicate that the new AMD-based Yoga Pro 7 is highly efficient and uses a paltry 7.9 watts at idle with screen brightness turned all the way up and refresh rate set to 90Hz. There also aren't any issues under load: you can expect power usage to be around 60 watts during gaming. > The Yoga Pro 7 had a really strong showing, lasting nearly 10 hours at 60Hz and 9 hours at 90Hz even at max brightness. When brightness was adjusted to 150 cd/m² (equivalent to 81% of max brightness on our review unit), the device even managed to hit 13 hours in the Wi-Fi test and 15 hours during video playback.
  - trelane 3y ago
    That looks like it's based on running Windows. Those results don't necessarily translate for Linux users on the same hardware.

toyg 3y ago

Because Apple works its supply chain hard. It's not a coincidence that their CEO comes from that side of the business.

oldpersonintx 3y ago
[dead]

jonnat 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale It would cost substantially more for a small-scale company to produce a laptop with the quality of MacBooks than it costs Apple. That cost difference would have to be passed to the consumer.

kube-system 3y ago
Additionally, a lot of these niche laptop brands don't even manufacture their own laptops because they're not even at the scale where designing and manufacturing a board and chassis would be financially viable. Many are white-label or ODM laptops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_design_manufacturer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_design_manufacturer

ant6n 3y ago

Major macbook compromise: glossy screen, no option to make it matte (there isnt even an official matte screen protector that is not for privacy in their store, and it isnt clear whether a glued on screen will damage the coating, or not fit when the macbook is closed). More compromises: lack of ports, missing basic functionality in OS, very high cost for ram and ssd.

jwells89 3y ago

Closest I’m aware of are ThinkPads, but be aware that build quality is not equal between model lines, that some models have less-Linux-friendly chipsets, and that some models come with surprisingly underwhelming display panels for their price (e.g. they’re dim). Most of the X1 lineup should be pretty solid though.

StableAlkyne 3y ago
It's such a shame they got sold off to Lenovo, a Chinese company with a history of privacy and security issues. Those things were built like tanks back when IBM owned the brand. My intro to Unix as a kid was installing a mail ordered copy of Ubuntu onto one! Survived years of physical abuse and reinstalls, and still boots up fine almost 20 years later

trelane 3y ago

> Why isn't there a company that would produce nearly macbook-quality laptops (albeit without the M-series ARM processor), but reliably linux-friendly? Because hackintoshes are much, much, much less common than someone slapping Linux on some random bit of kit. And nobody complains about OSX breaking or not running perfectly on non-Apple hardware. As evidenced by the term "hackintosh" itself. It's very hard for a Linux hardware company to gain any ability to innovate when so much of the market goes elsewhere. IMHO, it's nigh on miraculous that System76 is as great as it is. I would dearly love for them to be able to do more, but the reality is that most folks complain that it's not exactly what they want, and/or not exactly at the price point they want, and give their money to someone else. (Then they complain that Linux doesn't support their new Windows hardware adequately!) The smartest thing Apple ever did was force you to but Apple kit to run Apple software. Had they not, they'd have suffered the same fate. And we'd be discussing how much OSX sucks because it doesn't support the consumer Dell models adequately. (If OSX even continued to exist.)

cogman10 3y ago
> The smartest thing Apple ever did was force you to but Apple kit to run Apple software. Smart? Nah that was just the common practice at the rise of the Mac. IBM was somewhat insane for making such an open platform for anyone to play in. Yet, had they not done that we would not be having this discussion. DEC, Amiga, Osborne, the Java machine, etc. all were basically just locked up ecosystems based on proprietary software not built for tinkering.
- harkinian 3y ago
  And early 90s to mid 2000s was an era of especially standardized hardware. Every box was x86+RAM+mobo+HDD slapped together. With single CPU cores not getting much faster, hardware is becoming more specific again, making tight integration more advantageous.
  - trelane 3y ago
    It still wasn't that great back then. Even APM was wonky. Even back then, there was a tonne of firmware, and bugs got worked around in (Windows-only) drivers and INF files. The amount of firmware has since exploded, and it's gotten much more complex to boot (pun intended.) I think that's more the problem than specialized hardware.

diffeomorphism 3y ago

For the same reason MacBooks have lots of compromises: you just happen to agree with them. You cannot get higher than 60Hz in the air. No oled. Medium screen resolution. Okay-ish webcam only. Everything soldered. Heavier and bulkier than competition. No cuda, limited external screens,...

harkinian 3y ago
They're compromises that most people agree with, though. Like what's worse, having a merely 60hz display or not being audible in video calls? No CUDA or battery dies mid-day? Few laptop ports or horrible trackpad? Especially trackpads. Almost nobody makes good trackpads except Apple. I don't get why.
- diffeomorphism 3y ago
  Nah, not even apple agrees with them. See mini led, VRR on their pro devices and their supposedly upcoming oled models.

CoolCold 3y ago

> reliably linux-friendly That's gonna be interesting to see, one-size-fits-all laptop for Linux. Watching how disputes on THE TRUE AND THE ONLY EDITOR still ongoing, Vi/Vim/NeoVIM crowd vs EMACS adepts (VSCode users not to be considered as REAL GUYS of course, just frontend devs or even traitors of GNU), do you expect those crowds even can agree on should be there blobs/proprietary firmware, SecureBoot and TPM/Pluton used in such laptops? I seriously doubt.

azangru 3y ago
It does not matter. As long as a laptop reliably works with one linux distro, without any hidden/proprietary shenanigans, it works with any of them. It is then up to the end user to set up any linux they want, without fear that the webcam, or the speakers, or the thermals, or the sleep, or the touchpad will refuse to work.