4 ms·

It would be great if we were a bit more respectful towards our natural resources. Using so much energy to play with language models is a waste of resources.

firtoz 3y ago
The point in the article is to use less resources. So, yes?
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  People think that by making a system use less resources, the entire use of it on a societal level will be reduced. Unfortuantely, we must watch out for more efficiency making more poeple use it, and potentially increasing absolute quantity of energy being used.
  - MacsHeadroom 3y ago
    Energy usage is good, actually. Energy scarcity and dirty energy are bad. But energy usage is good. We should strive to use and produce orders of magnitude more (clean) energy.
nraford 3y ago
It would be great if I had a bathtub full of ice cream as well, and if we all lived in a world overflowing with love, respect and joy for all living things. Until then, I'm happy that these kinds of incredible tools are (and increasingly will be) be in more of our hands for close to free. Upwards and onwards!
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  Seems like with every passing year, we are going downwards, not upwards. Perhaps it only seems the other way around to those with the greatest addictions to technology, who will justify any development to satisfy their cravings.
  - guiriduro 3y ago
    Well, I for one am happy that less compute is being wasted on blockchain, and if the total BTUs and tonnes of CO2 remain equal while the proportion allocated to AI goes up, that'll also be a good thing. Doing useful stuff, and becoming more efficient (eliminating high carbon wasteful human activities and replacing with AI compute using less overall carbon), is also a net win.
nl 3y ago
They are using gaming GPUs. If you want to complain about a waste of natural resources there seems to be a lot of people playing games...
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  Well, they serve the same function. Modern consumerist society removes almost all real autonomy from people and makes them do fairly meaningless tasks (most jobs). So, it's rather expected that we need to seek out greater and greater amusements (gaming and playing with ridiculous models) so we're kept in a somewhat happy state, instead of realizing the trick of the system that will one day come crashing down due to its unsustainability.
- yard2010 3y ago
  Video games are like the opposite of waste. This planet can go to hell if I can't enjoy art.
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    There are some people that consider all forms of entertainment that don't create some form of extrinsic value to be a waste of time, energy, and materials. I feel bad for them. They're going to be the ones that lay in their death bed thinking "I wish I had allowed myself to have more fun".
llmzero 3y ago
What is a little contradictory is that designing a system to use less resources can increases the number of people fine tuning models so that the final result can be a net global increase in the total energy use. A hypothetical goal could be to reuse fine tuning, that is designing a knowledge graph in which you fine tuning from a previously fine tuned model (like dynamic programming, save the result of previous computations). Lora allow us to store the small matrices with low cost.
exitb 3y ago
Running a powerful GPU at full load using coal-generated energy causes two orders of magnitude less emissions than flying on an airliner (per passenger). If you ever flown anywhere in your life, I don't think you can climb on that high horse.
gkbrk 3y ago
> Using so much energy to play with language models is a waste of resources. Why do you get to decide what's wasteful and what's useful? We have more energy than we could ever hope to use from the sun and from nuclear. The solution isn't telling people they're wasting precious energy that you would put to better use. Just build more nuclear reactors and more solar.
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  Why do you get to decide which habitats die and which live by using all this modern technology that relies on mining and kills them?
  - Applejinx 3y ago
    I mean, this is a fair point but right now you're not talking to a libertarian who believes the technology inevitably governs itself, to the destruction of all around it. You're talking to more of a civilization-type who believes you have to use regulation and, if necessary, state violence to stop types of mining that kill habitats, because the technology certainly isn't going to up and decide to do that. It's the job of society to figure this stuff out, arrive at such positions and defend them. There are plenty of good reasons to defend the protection of habitats, even for purely self-interested pragmatic reasons.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Cheer2171 3y ago
I started reading your blog linked from your profile. I was disappointed that you used so much energy to play with language by writing up thoughts and hosting them on the internet. Seems like a waste of resources. Why do you think you have the right to burn all that carbon just so you can share your thoughts with the world? Why not just save electricity and take a walk through nature? That's how I think you should use your resources. I think I know better than you about how you should use energy. I think you should have to follow my ideology about energy use.
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  You are right in a way. I hope to one day give up the internet completely...
  - Applejinx 3y ago
    Careful, he'll have you disappear in a puff of logic. And then get killed at the next zebra crossing. Do you want that on your conscience? :)
infecto 3y ago
I hate this more recent doomer logic. Who is the arbiter of deciding whats a waste and not a waste? Why use such a basic and uncompelling narrative of telling how others should live their lives? I try to be thoughtful of my purchases and conserve my own resources and happy to talk about it but telling people that "doing x is a waste of resources" is a fools errand. Humanity has always progressed when in a collective group, it won't slow down now even though some individuals might drop out of it. I don't know what the future holds, collectively we will continue to progress and I see the bright side of all the recent momentum in renewable energy and the focus on making systems more efficient. Not the first time this character has popped up here on HN. "I write full-time and try to convince people of the danger of AI and advanced technology."
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  You are probably right...it may not have been the best approach. Well, I get emotional sometimes about the rapid advancement of technology and I do think it is a mistake of humanity to do so.
yard2010 3y ago
Also, whoever is married, please for the love of god merge your facebook accounts. It takes up too much space on the internet.
Applejinx 3y ago
Beats crypto in my opinion. I feel like there's a sliding scale for this stuff, and playing with language models is genuinely interesting, though it's harder to predict what the real benefits will be. I feel certain there will be great benefit, but not in the way AI hypesters expect there to be.

firtoz 3y ago

The point in the article is to use less resources. So, yes?

vouaobrasil 3y ago
People think that by making a system use less resources, the entire use of it on a societal level will be reduced. Unfortuantely, we must watch out for more efficiency making more poeple use it, and potentially increasing absolute quantity of energy being used.
- MacsHeadroom 3y ago
  Energy usage is good, actually. Energy scarcity and dirty energy are bad. But energy usage is good. We should strive to use and produce orders of magnitude more (clean) energy.

nraford 3y ago

It would be great if I had a bathtub full of ice cream as well, and if we all lived in a world overflowing with love, respect and joy for all living things. Until then, I'm happy that these kinds of incredible tools are (and increasingly will be) be in more of our hands for close to free. Upwards and onwards!

vouaobrasil 3y ago
Seems like with every passing year, we are going downwards, not upwards. Perhaps it only seems the other way around to those with the greatest addictions to technology, who will justify any development to satisfy their cravings.
- guiriduro 3y ago
  Well, I for one am happy that less compute is being wasted on blockchain, and if the total BTUs and tonnes of CO2 remain equal while the proportion allocated to AI goes up, that'll also be a good thing. Doing useful stuff, and becoming more efficient (eliminating high carbon wasteful human activities and replacing with AI compute using less overall carbon), is also a net win.

nl 3y ago

They are using gaming GPUs. If you want to complain about a waste of natural resources there seems to be a lot of people playing games...

vouaobrasil 3y ago
Well, they serve the same function. Modern consumerist society removes almost all real autonomy from people and makes them do fairly meaningless tasks (most jobs). So, it's rather expected that we need to seek out greater and greater amusements (gaming and playing with ridiculous models) so we're kept in a somewhat happy state, instead of realizing the trick of the system that will one day come crashing down due to its unsustainability.
yard2010 3y ago
Video games are like the opposite of waste. This planet can go to hell if I can't enjoy art.
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  There are some people that consider all forms of entertainment that don't create some form of extrinsic value to be a waste of time, energy, and materials. I feel bad for them. They're going to be the ones that lay in their death bed thinking "I wish I had allowed myself to have more fun".

llmzero 3y ago

What is a little contradictory is that designing a system to use less resources can increases the number of people fine tuning models so that the final result can be a net global increase in the total energy use. A hypothetical goal could be to reuse fine tuning, that is designing a knowledge graph in which you fine tuning from a previously fine tuned model (like dynamic programming, save the result of previous computations). Lora allow us to store the small matrices with low cost.

exitb 3y ago

Running a powerful GPU at full load using coal-generated energy causes two orders of magnitude less emissions than flying on an airliner (per passenger). If you ever flown anywhere in your life, I don't think you can climb on that high horse.

gkbrk 3y ago

> Using so much energy to play with language models is a waste of resources. Why do you get to decide what's wasteful and what's useful? We have more energy than we could ever hope to use from the sun and from nuclear. The solution isn't telling people they're wasting precious energy that you would put to better use. Just build more nuclear reactors and more solar.

vouaobrasil 3y ago
Why do you get to decide which habitats die and which live by using all this modern technology that relies on mining and kills them?
- Applejinx 3y ago
  I mean, this is a fair point but right now you're not talking to a libertarian who believes the technology inevitably governs itself, to the destruction of all around it. You're talking to more of a civilization-type who believes you have to use regulation and, if necessary, state violence to stop types of mining that kill habitats, because the technology certainly isn't going to up and decide to do that. It's the job of society to figure this stuff out, arrive at such positions and defend them. There are plenty of good reasons to defend the protection of habitats, even for purely self-interested pragmatic reasons.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Cheer2171 3y ago

I started reading your blog linked from your profile. I was disappointed that you used so much energy to play with language by writing up thoughts and hosting them on the internet. Seems like a waste of resources. Why do you think you have the right to burn all that carbon just so you can share your thoughts with the world? Why not just save electricity and take a walk through nature? That's how I think you should use your resources. I think I know better than you about how you should use energy. I think you should have to follow my ideology about energy use.

vouaobrasil 3y ago
You are right in a way. I hope to one day give up the internet completely...
- Applejinx 3y ago
  Careful, he'll have you disappear in a puff of logic. And then get killed at the next zebra crossing. Do you want that on your conscience? :)

infecto 3y ago

I hate this more recent doomer logic. Who is the arbiter of deciding whats a waste and not a waste? Why use such a basic and uncompelling narrative of telling how others should live their lives? I try to be thoughtful of my purchases and conserve my own resources and happy to talk about it but telling people that "doing x is a waste of resources" is a fools errand. Humanity has always progressed when in a collective group, it won't slow down now even though some individuals might drop out of it. I don't know what the future holds, collectively we will continue to progress and I see the bright side of all the recent momentum in renewable energy and the focus on making systems more efficient. Not the first time this character has popped up here on HN. "I write full-time and try to convince people of the danger of AI and advanced technology."

vouaobrasil 3y ago
You are probably right...it may not have been the best approach. Well, I get emotional sometimes about the rapid advancement of technology and I do think it is a mistake of humanity to do so.

yard2010 3y ago

Also, whoever is married, please for the love of god merge your facebook accounts. It takes up too much space on the internet.

Applejinx 3y ago

Beats crypto in my opinion. I feel like there's a sliding scale for this stuff, and playing with language models is genuinely interesting, though it's harder to predict what the real benefits will be. I feel certain there will be great benefit, but not in the way AI hypesters expect there to be.