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Apple really trying to be the asshole here. Imagine installing work apps that disappear after 30 days.. Also what happens if the user chooses not to share their

Apple really trying to be the asshole here. Imagine installing work apps that disappear after 30 days.. Also what happens if the user chooses not to share their live location with apple?

paulpan 3y ago
Wonder how stringent they'll try to be, since you could technically VPN even for a few hours back into an EU server to reset the 30-day period. Or someone will inevitably create an app that will do this automatically & indefinitely.
CubsFan1060 3y ago
They don't lose access to the apps. I suspect the phone itself is what disables it, not sending the location to Apple.
- randmeerkat 3y ago
  > They don't lose access to the apps. I suspect the phone itself is what disables it, not sending the location to Apple. Imagine paying a thousand dollars for a computer that actively sabotages its user based on their gps data… All because the manufacturer wants to control how someone can install a piece of software on it…
  - CubsFan1060 3y ago
    It.. doesn't bother me. But none of this is different than when said person spent a thousand dollars. If this is the sort of thing that annoys you, you should probably have bought a different device in the first place.
    - refulgentis 3y ago
      This is a brand spanking new feature[^1], I'm not sure they knew this kind of thing would bother them until recently. [^1] Source: TFA, the thing we're commenting on, at least, hopefully we're not just looking for comments to reply to, and then replying in a way that makes people feel small and look silly
      - CubsFan1060 3y ago
        Right. So, when the person bought the item, the expectation was that Apple's App Store was the only option. Now, there is an additional option, while in the the EU. So the feature set when the person bought the phone is the same, and there is now a new added ability.
        refulgentis 3y ago
        That's right. Apple never dictated app operation, especially ones they officially support, via GPS before. It was completely unforseeable. Are you the same person who was saying tough noodles, you should have accounted for this when buying the phone? Or is someone else operating the account now?
      - MattGaiser 3y ago
        You never had the ability to install stuff outside the App Store before, so this is really just the status quo.
        refulgentis 3y ago
        100% correct. Apple never dictated app operation, especially ones they officially support, via GPS before. 100% unforseeable.
        Aloisius 3y ago
        Eh. AirDrop in China.
    - vsuperpower2020 3y ago
      I'm completely tired of seeing this awful mindset. Why do you get mad when consumers make shitty practices illegal instead of just putting up with it, but not when you see companies scam people? If "just don't get scammed lol" is a valid argument then there's clearly nothing wrong with just making the practice illegal.
      - user_7832 3y ago
        Yeah, I really don't get the "just get an android" type of response (even though the OP here is quite polite and I'm referring to other people arguing this). If something exhibits anti-competitive behaviour, it's great if competition exists, but it does not justify the behaviour which should still be subject to typical anti-competitive laws.
        overstay8930 3y ago
        So instead make it impossible to create an alternative to Apple because now there isn’t a point? Someone could have come in and done everything better than Apple and more open, but now that’s impossible. Who would bother when they could just donate to the nearest EU politician to dictate what software change they want next?
        smoldesu 3y ago
        You should lobby your nearest EU politician to stop platform-holders from creating anti-competitive conditions. It damages the market, and requires regular scrutiny to prevent the corporate bean counters from deploying salami tactics. Because guess what? Apple isn't going away, their hardware will continue to be popular, and companies will compete with them regardless. Just because one business tactic has been deemed anticompetitive doesn't mean everything is, let alone that you can't continue providing the same features under fair pretenses. Apple chooses how they respond to the legislation, and right now they are deliberately steering themselves in the most victimizing and infantile direction possible. It makes me embarrassed to be an American, where many consider this behavior an... attribute of free-market patriotism. Barf.
    - quickslowdown 3y ago
      Wow, this is a wildly defeatist & subservient mindset. It's ok to like something, and also recognize its flaws & demand better. It's kind of the underlying principle behind all of human history. But if you're so apathetic, that's fine, just sit this one out & let the people who do care try to effect change.
- gumby271 3y ago
  I'm not sure the nuance of technically not sending to Apple really matters when we talk about iOS. iOS is Apple's loyal servant, does it really matter if their control is exacted server or client side? That line is pretty blurry when it comes to Apple in general.
- _visgean 3y ago
  If the phone would not send location data then it would need to store quite a bit of geographical data to be able to accurately say if you spend last 30 days in EU. That might be harder in border regions...
Sayrus 3y ago
Or worse, imagine realizing you forgot one important app when reaching your destination. Uber doesn't exist in the country you went to? You can now only install this country's taxi app through the App Store since your alternative app marketplace lost its ability to install apps... > However, you must be in the European Union to install alternative app marketplaces and new apps from alternative app marketplaces
- CubsFan1060 3y ago
  I'm confused at the scenario you are presenting. So in this case, you travel out of the EU, but are installing a taxi app from a non-eu country, but the app is only available in the EU?
  - Sayrus 3y ago
    Maybe my example wasn't the best since Uber is practically in all countries. It has however competitors which also are available in many countries and could be available as apps in this EU only store Let's get to a more down to earth example then: you break your phone while abroad, you can't buy a new one and reinstall old apps anymore. Or another one: you forgot to install an application available only on this alternative store before leaving (it's not that crazy, see F-Droid on Android where apps are not always available on the Play Store), you can't install it anymore since you aren't physically in the EU anymore.
chipweinberger 3y ago
the phone disables itself without sharing to apple
- dylan604 3y ago
  the phone is not disabled
Aloisius 3y ago
Installed apps don't disappear. Access to the app store disappears.
lm411 3y ago
Unless I misunderstand, the apps still work? They just can't be updated after 30 days and you can't install new apps from the third party stores.
- Larrikin 3y ago
  After MVP, the first security feature a mobile team should implement is a forced upgrade flow.
  - lm411 3y ago
    I don't disagree. Given the barrier to entry and cost, with little benefit, if I were to guess, the Epic store might be the only "third party App Store" to ever see the light of day. And the way that's going, even that is in doubt.
    - turquoisevar 3y ago
      There are already five or so credible announcements of alternatives app stores, not counting Epic who tried to slip in through the back door. One of them even announced providing a white label service for others to launch their app store. I have no interest in them, but it’ll be fine.
- turquoisevar 3y ago
  No, you understand it correctly. People are just being dramatic because they’re not getting what they want. The DMA doesn’t even stipulate a 30 day provision, just a stipulation that it applies to people who live or are located in the EU. There’s a bit of wiggle room on how to read that (i.e., people who live in the EU, people who are located in the EU, people who live or are located in the EU) and Apple chose the middle road, presumably with the expectation that if it turns out to be an issue it’ll be settled before the CJEU.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    a stipulation that it applies to people who live or are located in the EU if i travel to leave the EU for longer than 30 days, do i no longer live in the EU? according to tax law, i am considered living in the EU as long as i spend at least 6 months per year there. so by that metric, the feature should be available for at least 6 months after leaving the EU.
m463 3y ago
I wonder if you turn off location services, and use a european VPN, if you maintain access. If you do not have access, I would wonder if they would run across the problem google ran into with private browsing, that people expect to have privacy. In other words, if you turn off location services, that apple will not track your location and should have (legal) no way of knowing if you are inside or outside of the EU.
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  The phone still needs to know which country you are in so it can follow local laws and regulations. Apple doesn’t need to know where you are because the phone can enforce their rules offline.
  - archagon 3y ago
    "The phone" doesn't need to know anything about anything, and it's up to the user and/or any web services they use to follow local laws. Historically, physical objects have not needed to change their behavior when moving across national borders.
- diebeforei485 3y ago
  iPhone VPN's are not enabled when connecting with Apple's domains.
  - bpye 3y ago
    In that case a WiFi network that tunnels all your traffic to an endpoint within the EU?
    - bongodongobob 3y ago
      I think there's still issues even if you do that. I worked on a corporate firewall issue a few years ago where iPhones were getting around our DNS and outbound VPN blocking. It had something to do with DoH but for the life of me I can't remember exactly how it was related. I just remember that they were very sneaky in connecting to things that should have been blocked and were successfully blocked on the PCs and Androids.

Apple really trying to be the asshole here. Imagine installing work apps that disappear after 30 days.. Also what happens if the user chooses not to share their live location with apple?

paulpan 3y ago

Wonder how stringent they'll try to be, since you could technically VPN even for a few hours back into an EU server to reset the 30-day period. Or someone will inevitably create an app that will do this automatically & indefinitely.

CubsFan1060 3y ago

They don't lose access to the apps. I suspect the phone itself is what disables it, not sending the location to Apple.

randmeerkat 3y ago
> They don't lose access to the apps. I suspect the phone itself is what disables it, not sending the location to Apple. Imagine paying a thousand dollars for a computer that actively sabotages its user based on their gps data… All because the manufacturer wants to control how someone can install a piece of software on it…
- CubsFan1060 3y ago
  It.. doesn't bother me. But none of this is different than when said person spent a thousand dollars. If this is the sort of thing that annoys you, you should probably have bought a different device in the first place.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    This is a brand spanking new feature[^1], I'm not sure they knew this kind of thing would bother them until recently. [^1] Source: TFA, the thing we're commenting on, at least, hopefully we're not just looking for comments to reply to, and then replying in a way that makes people feel small and look silly
    - CubsFan1060 3y ago
      Right. So, when the person bought the item, the expectation was that Apple's App Store was the only option. Now, there is an additional option, while in the the EU. So the feature set when the person bought the phone is the same, and there is now a new added ability.
      - refulgentis 3y ago
        That's right. Apple never dictated app operation, especially ones they officially support, via GPS before. It was completely unforseeable. Are you the same person who was saying tough noodles, you should have accounted for this when buying the phone? Or is someone else operating the account now?
    - MattGaiser 3y ago
      You never had the ability to install stuff outside the App Store before, so this is really just the status quo.
      - refulgentis 3y ago
        100% correct. Apple never dictated app operation, especially ones they officially support, via GPS before. 100% unforseeable.
        Aloisius 3y ago
        Eh. AirDrop in China.
  - vsuperpower2020 3y ago
    I'm completely tired of seeing this awful mindset. Why do you get mad when consumers make shitty practices illegal instead of just putting up with it, but not when you see companies scam people? If "just don't get scammed lol" is a valid argument then there's clearly nothing wrong with just making the practice illegal.
    - user_7832 3y ago
      Yeah, I really don't get the "just get an android" type of response (even though the OP here is quite polite and I'm referring to other people arguing this). If something exhibits anti-competitive behaviour, it's great if competition exists, but it does not justify the behaviour which should still be subject to typical anti-competitive laws.
      - overstay8930 3y ago
        So instead make it impossible to create an alternative to Apple because now there isn’t a point? Someone could have come in and done everything better than Apple and more open, but now that’s impossible. Who would bother when they could just donate to the nearest EU politician to dictate what software change they want next?
        smoldesu 3y ago
        You should lobby your nearest EU politician to stop platform-holders from creating anti-competitive conditions. It damages the market, and requires regular scrutiny to prevent the corporate bean counters from deploying salami tactics. Because guess what? Apple isn't going away, their hardware will continue to be popular, and companies will compete with them regardless. Just because one business tactic has been deemed anticompetitive doesn't mean everything is, let alone that you can't continue providing the same features under fair pretenses. Apple chooses how they respond to the legislation, and right now they are deliberately steering themselves in the most victimizing and infantile direction possible. It makes me embarrassed to be an American, where many consider this behavior an... attribute of free-market patriotism. Barf.
  - quickslowdown 3y ago
    Wow, this is a wildly defeatist & subservient mindset. It's ok to like something, and also recognize its flaws & demand better. It's kind of the underlying principle behind all of human history. But if you're so apathetic, that's fine, just sit this one out & let the people who do care try to effect change.
gumby271 3y ago
I'm not sure the nuance of technically not sending to Apple really matters when we talk about iOS. iOS is Apple's loyal servant, does it really matter if their control is exacted server or client side? That line is pretty blurry when it comes to Apple in general.
_visgean 3y ago
If the phone would not send location data then it would need to store quite a bit of geographical data to be able to accurately say if you spend last 30 days in EU. That might be harder in border regions...

Sayrus 3y ago

Or worse, imagine realizing you forgot one important app when reaching your destination. Uber doesn't exist in the country you went to? You can now only install this country's taxi app through the App Store since your alternative app marketplace lost its ability to install apps... > However, you must be in the European Union to install alternative app marketplaces and new apps from alternative app marketplaces

CubsFan1060 3y ago
I'm confused at the scenario you are presenting. So in this case, you travel out of the EU, but are installing a taxi app from a non-eu country, but the app is only available in the EU?
- Sayrus 3y ago
  Maybe my example wasn't the best since Uber is practically in all countries. It has however competitors which also are available in many countries and could be available as apps in this EU only store Let's get to a more down to earth example then: you break your phone while abroad, you can't buy a new one and reinstall old apps anymore. Or another one: you forgot to install an application available only on this alternative store before leaving (it's not that crazy, see F-Droid on Android where apps are not always available on the Play Store), you can't install it anymore since you aren't physically in the EU anymore.

chipweinberger 3y ago

the phone disables itself without sharing to apple

dylan604 3y ago
the phone is not disabled

Aloisius 3y ago

Installed apps don't disappear. Access to the app store disappears.

lm411 3y ago

Unless I misunderstand, the apps still work? They just can't be updated after 30 days and you can't install new apps from the third party stores.

Larrikin 3y ago
After MVP, the first security feature a mobile team should implement is a forced upgrade flow.
- lm411 3y ago
  I don't disagree. Given the barrier to entry and cost, with little benefit, if I were to guess, the Epic store might be the only "third party App Store" to ever see the light of day. And the way that's going, even that is in doubt.
  - turquoisevar 3y ago
    There are already five or so credible announcements of alternatives app stores, not counting Epic who tried to slip in through the back door. One of them even announced providing a white label service for others to launch their app store. I have no interest in them, but it’ll be fine.
turquoisevar 3y ago
No, you understand it correctly. People are just being dramatic because they’re not getting what they want. The DMA doesn’t even stipulate a 30 day provision, just a stipulation that it applies to people who live or are located in the EU. There’s a bit of wiggle room on how to read that (i.e., people who live in the EU, people who are located in the EU, people who live or are located in the EU) and Apple chose the middle road, presumably with the expectation that if it turns out to be an issue it’ll be settled before the CJEU.
- em-bee 3y ago
  a stipulation that it applies to people who live or are located in the EU if i travel to leave the EU for longer than 30 days, do i no longer live in the EU? according to tax law, i am considered living in the EU as long as i spend at least 6 months per year there. so by that metric, the feature should be available for at least 6 months after leaving the EU.

m463 3y ago

I wonder if you turn off location services, and use a european VPN, if you maintain access. If you do not have access, I would wonder if they would run across the problem google ran into with private browsing, that people expect to have privacy. In other words, if you turn off location services, that apple will not track your location and should have (legal) no way of knowing if you are inside or outside of the EU.

kayodelycaon 3y ago
The phone still needs to know which country you are in so it can follow local laws and regulations. Apple doesn’t need to know where you are because the phone can enforce their rules offline.
- archagon 3y ago
  "The phone" doesn't need to know anything about anything, and it's up to the user and/or any web services they use to follow local laws. Historically, physical objects have not needed to change their behavior when moving across national borders.
diebeforei485 3y ago
iPhone VPN's are not enabled when connecting with Apple's domains.
- bpye 3y ago
  In that case a WiFi network that tunnels all your traffic to an endpoint within the EU?
  - bongodongobob 3y ago
    I think there's still issues even if you do that. I worked on a corporate firewall issue a few years ago where iPhones were getting around our DNS and outbound VPN blocking. It had something to do with DoH but for the life of me I can't remember exactly how it was related. I just remember that they were very sneaky in connecting to things that should have been blocked and were successfully blocked on the PCs and Androids.