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Just in yesterday's news I read a telling stat: +40% of men think that women had gone too far in pursuing equal rights... in my country, a fairly progressive on

Just in yesterday's news I read a telling stat: +40% of men think that women had gone too far in pursuing equal rights... in my country, a fairly progressive one. What's there to understand or forgive? This is unacceptable. Patriarchy is dominant culture in most parts of the world, and it utterly sucks, period.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
thinkingemote 3y ago
Understanding is good. You don't need to agree with someone but to understand someone is always good. To see the world through anothers eyes might be the only way how those who view progress as too far can be reached and talked with. How can someone willfully ignorant change their mind? Understanding isn't something that only ones enemies have to do. Understanding can be a prerequisite of forgiveness and necessary for peace. Many do not want to understand or forgive for many factors. Understanding these factors is good. (In a political context, personally I find politicians are able to understand others views most. They understand and can approach those with differing viewpoints)
- jamager 3y ago
  I did interpret "understanding" as "being supportive to" and not as "comprehend incentives / PoV". In that case, fair enough, but I don't think there is a ton left to comprehend, as in, I am not seeing many new arguments as why men career opportunities must come at the cost of women's, etc. (An btw, not advocating / defending matriarchy either, but egalitarism.)
dr_dshiv 3y ago
My house is largely matriarchal and I’d be surprised if it scores better on your suck scale.
- geraldhh 3y ago
  most husbands will emphatically agree. i wonder if we're representative thou
- fnordian_slip 3y ago
  Isn't it rather presumptuous to believe that just because someone says "patriarchy sucks", they advocate for a matriarchy? I just read it as "patriarchy sucks, we should have equality" instead.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    If they live in a progressive society and says that existence of men who doesn't see that they live in a horrible patriarchy is proof that they live in a horrible patriarchy then yeah, it is not unreasonable to think they wont be happy without a matriarchy because that is where such thinking ends up. If they have good examples of patriarchy and horrible things against women they should have posted that instead of saying that men thinking women have it good is evidence of patriarchy.
geraldhh 3y ago
> Patriarchy is dominant culture in most parts of the world, and it utterly sucks, period. might be a worthwhile to look at the places were it isn't and compare the suckiness. thou correlation does not imply causality... "men pretend to hate each other and women pretend to like each other."
tmnvix 3y ago
Possibly a response to the perceived nature of the pursuit?
Jensson 3y ago
> +40% of men think that women had gone too far in pursuing equal rights... in my country, a fairly progressive one. Why is it strange that men in a progressive society thinks that they are a bit too progressive? The more privileges given to women the closer we are to women having gotten too many and now men are disadvantaged, so I don't think it is unreasonable for a large amount of men thinking it has gone too far regardless were you are on the spectrum.
- bojan 3y ago
  > privileges given to women Privileges, you mean rights? The same rights that men already have? Even in the most progressive parts of the world we are still far from equality. "given", given by whom?
  - Jensson 3y ago
    > Privileges, you mean rights? No, I mean privileges, don't argue with a strawman. > The same rights that men already have? Women hasn't lacked a single right men had in my country for my entire life, but women has many legal rights/privileges that men hasn't had in my life. That is why I said privileges and not rights. Maybe they need those privileges to make up for cultural privileges men has, but you can see why some men think that maybe they gained too many.
    - jamager 3y ago
      Gender salary gap is a man's privilege, even in your country, to put just one example: https://ourworldindata.org/economic-inequality-by-gender https://ourworldindata.org/economic-inequality-by-gender OTOH I am not going to ask what "privileges" women have in your country, but I hope you don't count abortion, longer maternity leave, reduced VAT in feminine hygiene products and such, as women's privilege.
      - belorn 3y ago
        Gender salary gap is a privilege of hours worked and work experience. People who work full time get the privilege of getting more paid that those working half time. The linked ourworldindata page also says this, as the gender salary gap is about inequality and not necessary discrimination. The ourworldindata page does also not use the word privilege. A major cause of inequality is that mothers spend less time in the work force during and after pregnancy, and that there are a higher ratio of mothers than fathers. Fathers also do not take out their given parental leave, with many reporting that they are not allowed to because of cultural discrimination (including from their partners).
belorn 3y ago
Did they define what they meant with going to far? During metoo in Sweden, the dominant discussion was about media ethics and how far things should be legal with trial by media. There was also discussion about banning men from concerts and have women exclusive departments on trains. There has also been discussion about giving women free credit points for university programs with high ratio of men (but was later cancelled because they did not want to give men the same credits in programs with high ratio of women). Affirmative action in education has been a fairly hot political topic for the last couple decades. An other discussion is about quota systems for boards or management, and if those system is effective strategy for equality. Within EU it has also become a question if such laws should be on EU level or on a national level. Similar discussion also exist with parental leave and if those should be shared or dedicated, and if it should be EU law or national. Which region of the world are we talking about with "+40% of men think that women had gone too far in pursuing equal rights", and what is the context/demographic/method of polling used?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

thinkingemote 3y ago

Understanding is good. You don't need to agree with someone but to understand someone is always good. To see the world through anothers eyes might be the only way how those who view progress as too far can be reached and talked with. How can someone willfully ignorant change their mind? Understanding isn't something that only ones enemies have to do. Understanding can be a prerequisite of forgiveness and necessary for peace. Many do not want to understand or forgive for many factors. Understanding these factors is good. (In a political context, personally I find politicians are able to understand others views most. They understand and can approach those with differing viewpoints)

jamager 3y ago
I did interpret "understanding" as "being supportive to" and not as "comprehend incentives / PoV". In that case, fair enough, but I don't think there is a ton left to comprehend, as in, I am not seeing many new arguments as why men career opportunities must come at the cost of women's, etc. (An btw, not advocating / defending matriarchy either, but egalitarism.)

dr_dshiv 3y ago

My house is largely matriarchal and I’d be surprised if it scores better on your suck scale.

geraldhh 3y ago
most husbands will emphatically agree. i wonder if we're representative thou
fnordian_slip 3y ago
Isn't it rather presumptuous to believe that just because someone says "patriarchy sucks", they advocate for a matriarchy? I just read it as "patriarchy sucks, we should have equality" instead.
- Jensson 3y ago
  If they live in a progressive society and says that existence of men who doesn't see that they live in a horrible patriarchy is proof that they live in a horrible patriarchy then yeah, it is not unreasonable to think they wont be happy without a matriarchy because that is where such thinking ends up. If they have good examples of patriarchy and horrible things against women they should have posted that instead of saying that men thinking women have it good is evidence of patriarchy.

geraldhh 3y ago

> Patriarchy is dominant culture in most parts of the world, and it utterly sucks, period. might be a worthwhile to look at the places were it isn't and compare the suckiness. thou correlation does not imply causality... "men pretend to hate each other and women pretend to like each other."

tmnvix 3y ago

Possibly a response to the perceived nature of the pursuit?

Jensson 3y ago

> +40% of men think that women had gone too far in pursuing equal rights... in my country, a fairly progressive one. Why is it strange that men in a progressive society thinks that they are a bit too progressive? The more privileges given to women the closer we are to women having gotten too many and now men are disadvantaged, so I don't think it is unreasonable for a large amount of men thinking it has gone too far regardless were you are on the spectrum.

bojan 3y ago
> privileges given to women Privileges, you mean rights? The same rights that men already have? Even in the most progressive parts of the world we are still far from equality. "given", given by whom?
- Jensson 3y ago
  > Privileges, you mean rights? No, I mean privileges, don't argue with a strawman. > The same rights that men already have? Women hasn't lacked a single right men had in my country for my entire life, but women has many legal rights/privileges that men hasn't had in my life. That is why I said privileges and not rights. Maybe they need those privileges to make up for cultural privileges men has, but you can see why some men think that maybe they gained too many.
  - jamager 3y ago
    Gender salary gap is a man's privilege, even in your country, to put just one example: https://ourworldindata.org/economic-inequality-by-gender https://ourworldindata.org/economic-inequality-by-gender OTOH I am not going to ask what "privileges" women have in your country, but I hope you don't count abortion, longer maternity leave, reduced VAT in feminine hygiene products and such, as women's privilege.
    - belorn 3y ago
      Gender salary gap is a privilege of hours worked and work experience. People who work full time get the privilege of getting more paid that those working half time. The linked ourworldindata page also says this, as the gender salary gap is about inequality and not necessary discrimination. The ourworldindata page does also not use the word privilege. A major cause of inequality is that mothers spend less time in the work force during and after pregnancy, and that there are a higher ratio of mothers than fathers. Fathers also do not take out their given parental leave, with many reporting that they are not allowed to because of cultural discrimination (including from their partners).

belorn 3y ago

Did they define what they meant with going to far? During metoo in Sweden, the dominant discussion was about media ethics and how far things should be legal with trial by media. There was also discussion about banning men from concerts and have women exclusive departments on trains. There has also been discussion about giving women free credit points for university programs with high ratio of men (but was later cancelled because they did not want to give men the same credits in programs with high ratio of women). Affirmative action in education has been a fairly hot political topic for the last couple decades. An other discussion is about quota systems for boards or management, and if those system is effective strategy for equality. Within EU it has also become a question if such laws should be on EU level or on a national level. Similar discussion also exist with parental leave and if those should be shared or dedicated, and if it should be EU law or national. Which region of the world are we talking about with "+40% of men think that women had gone too far in pursuing equal rights", and what is the context/demographic/method of polling used?