4 ms·

> Maybe another method is needed then? What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. I don't approve of Israel's methods. I'd p

by screye 3y ago

> Maybe another method is needed then? What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. I don't approve of Israel's methods. I'd prefer an egalitarian solution. But, I'm all out of ideas. Find me an instance of 2 co-habiting or neighboring groups that hate each other, have huge disputes and ended up in relative peace. I can give you my recent examples of previous instances that are now mostly peaceful, and all of them violate the geneva convention or UN human rights declaration. Xinjiang = permament open air prison and extreme brain washing Srilanka LTTE = violent genocide of all suspected participants and their innocent family. 100k civilians killed Bosnia - Sijekovac killings = violent genocide of thousands of innocent Bosnians in the Bosnian war Kosovo - thousands of killings, massive population displacement (1+ million) & US military intervention So what is it ? Do we want the US to intervene and guarantee safety to Israel ? Do we want real open air prisons and complete cultural eradication ? Do we want population displacement of every Gazan to a 3rd location ? Hopefully we are not in support of genocide ? Well, so what is 'another method' ? Every single instance of haphazardly drawn post-WW2 line, has led to some kind of insurgency, war, genocide or forced population displacement. Peaceful borders are drawn in the blood of ancestors. The west is simply fortunate enough to have concluded it's killing mid-way through the 20th century. Israel is currently going through one such process. It is especially rich to see the criticism come from western nations who first created the problem. They encouraged the conditions that led to Oct 2023: 2005 withdrawl of Israel and rise of Hamas, and its unilateral control on aid. They refuse to propose any middle ground solution. It's ridiculous.

YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
>> Well, so what is 'another method' ? Another method would be the IDF accepting their responsibility for failing to protect the kibbutzim on 7 October, and making damn sure that this doesn't happen again on their watch. Stop killing the Arabs and start defending the jews. And I don't mean that they should make sure there's no more Palestinians left to attack them, because that is a horror that the world must never see again (but still sees all too often).
- Auracle 3y ago
  So basically let them attack Israel as much as they want, and Israel is only allowed to defend? That's like having a sibling that's allowed to punch, prod, and poke you as much as they want. If you don't hit back your life will be hell.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    Well that is a mostly self inflicted problem. You can't rob people from their land, force them to retreat into getthos, killing them, then expect that their descendants will be friends. You also can't possibly have your ascendancy been victim of genocide and pretend this is the solution to your own problems.
    - Auracle 3y ago
      They didn't 'rob them of their land.' The word "Palestinian" used to refer to jews. Obviously it's all a bit complicated but a lot of people seem to have the idea that Israel was created out of whole cloth. They were pushed out of literally every other country in the region - https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fhlm7lwabu2tb1.png https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fh... - so they're clearly hated for reasons other than what you stated.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      Jewish people take on no special moral obligations by being victims of the Holocaust. I can't tell if you were implying that they were, but just for clarity's sake.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
    Note that what I'm describing is essentially the status quo before 7 October, including the periodic "mowings of the lawn" by Israel to keep Gaza uprisings in check. Alternatively of course, Israel could choose to make peace. And that's an option that is available only to Israel, who is the occupying power, and the overwhelmingly more militarily powerful party, not to the Palestinians who can only keep growing resistance groups as long as they are occupied. Israel can choose to end the atrocities and the bloodshed tomorrow. But I guess that would be too much loss of face for all the belligerent fascist assholes in its government.
Qem 3y ago
> What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. Sticking to quite recent examples: South Africa, Basque Country, Ireland.
- fullspectrumdev 3y ago
  The violence hasn’t really stopped in any of those places. Some participants have changed though.
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    Huh? The violence in Northern Ireland has 100% stopped.
    - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
      There’s still dissident republican and loyalist groups getting up to bullshit criminality and committing attacks on the regular. The PIRA may have disbanded, but there are still active splinter groups.
      - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
        I mean, they're basically gangs now, rather than terrorists. I remember growing up in the 80s/90s in the south and every single weekend there was either bombings or killings. That's almost entirely ended now.
        fullspectrumdev 3y ago
        It’s not as bad as it was, and yes they are mostly drugs gangs now, but it’s still unacceptable levels of useless violence.
tsimionescu 3y ago
We actually have very clear examples from history of how to turn an enemy into a friend: the Marshall plan and the similar levels of aid that the USA poured into post-nazi Germany, post-fascist Italy, post-imperial Japan. That turned War-torn bitter enemies into some of the staunchest US allies today. Given Israel's position of power, they can and should be doing this. However, Israeli politicians just don't want this. Netanyahu has publicly boasted numerous times that he has personally been actively fighting to prevent a two-state solution. A one-state solution is unthinkable to even the moderates in Israel (the Supreme Court has repeatedly iterated that the government MUST protect both the Jewish and the Democratic character of Israel, so integrating the populations of Gaza and the West Bank as full Israeli citizens like this would be unconstitutional, but integrating them as second class citizens would also be unconstitutional). So what is Israel's solution? Destroying Hamas is a pipe dream - the famine, death, and destruction they are pereptrating in Gaza today will, inevitably, create a new wave of terrorism, whether it's called "Hamas" or something else, as it always has throughout all of history. The only real solution is massive economic investments in Gaza and the West Bank, and relying on police-like peacekeeping to prevent attacks as much as possible. This is the obvious long-term solution, anything else will worsen, not improve, Israel's security.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  >We actually have very clear examples from history of how to turn an enemy into a friend: the Marshall plan Japan, Germany, and Italy's people didn't practice a religion that required them to hate Americans. For Germany and Italy in particular, they followed (basically) the same religion as most Americans. Japan never really had much religion. And none of these WWII powers were theocratic states in any way, or governed by religious extremists. The idea that Israel and Gaza are somehow going to become staunch allies seems like a pipe dream. However, if you really do want to follow the WWII example, you're totally forgetting that the Allies completely flattened major cities and killed millions of civilians, intentionally, before finally getting unconditional surrenders from their enemies. Basically, one side had to hit rock-bottom before it could be built up again into an ally by the victor. Being so completely devastated and defeated in a major war caused the losing powers to collectively change, on a societal level, the way they viewed the world.
disgruntledphd2 3y ago
> What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. I don't approve of Israel's methods. I'd prefer an egalitarian solution. But, I'm all out of ideas. Find me an instance of 2 co-habiting or neighboring groups that hate each other, have huge disputes and ended up in relative peace. Northern Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process They still hate one another, but are mostly at peace.

by screye 3y ago

YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago

>> Well, so what is 'another method' ? Another method would be the IDF accepting their responsibility for failing to protect the kibbutzim on 7 October, and making damn sure that this doesn't happen again on their watch. Stop killing the Arabs and start defending the jews. And I don't mean that they should make sure there's no more Palestinians left to attack them, because that is a horror that the world must never see again (but still sees all too often).

Auracle 3y ago
So basically let them attack Israel as much as they want, and Israel is only allowed to defend? That's like having a sibling that's allowed to punch, prod, and poke you as much as they want. If you don't hit back your life will be hell.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  Well that is a mostly self inflicted problem. You can't rob people from their land, force them to retreat into getthos, killing them, then expect that their descendants will be friends. You also can't possibly have your ascendancy been victim of genocide and pretend this is the solution to your own problems.
  - Auracle 3y ago
    They didn't 'rob them of their land.' The word "Palestinian" used to refer to jews. Obviously it's all a bit complicated but a lot of people seem to have the idea that Israel was created out of whole cloth. They were pushed out of literally every other country in the region - https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fhlm7lwabu2tb1.png https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fh... - so they're clearly hated for reasons other than what you stated.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Jewish people take on no special moral obligations by being victims of the Holocaust. I can't tell if you were implying that they were, but just for clarity's sake.
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
  Note that what I'm describing is essentially the status quo before 7 October, including the periodic "mowings of the lawn" by Israel to keep Gaza uprisings in check. Alternatively of course, Israel could choose to make peace. And that's an option that is available only to Israel, who is the occupying power, and the overwhelmingly more militarily powerful party, not to the Palestinians who can only keep growing resistance groups as long as they are occupied. Israel can choose to end the atrocities and the bloodshed tomorrow. But I guess that would be too much loss of face for all the belligerent fascist assholes in its government.

Qem 3y ago

> What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. Sticking to quite recent examples: South Africa, Basque Country, Ireland.

fullspectrumdev 3y ago
The violence hasn’t really stopped in any of those places. Some participants have changed though.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  Huh? The violence in Northern Ireland has 100% stopped.
  - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
    There’s still dissident republican and loyalist groups getting up to bullshit criminality and committing attacks on the regular. The PIRA may have disbanded, but there are still active splinter groups.
    - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
      I mean, they're basically gangs now, rather than terrorists. I remember growing up in the 80s/90s in the south and every single weekend there was either bombings or killings. That's almost entirely ended now.
      - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
        It’s not as bad as it was, and yes they are mostly drugs gangs now, but it’s still unacceptable levels of useless violence.

tsimionescu 3y ago

We actually have very clear examples from history of how to turn an enemy into a friend: the Marshall plan and the similar levels of aid that the USA poured into post-nazi Germany, post-fascist Italy, post-imperial Japan. That turned War-torn bitter enemies into some of the staunchest US allies today. Given Israel's position of power, they can and should be doing this. However, Israeli politicians just don't want this. Netanyahu has publicly boasted numerous times that he has personally been actively fighting to prevent a two-state solution. A one-state solution is unthinkable to even the moderates in Israel (the Supreme Court has repeatedly iterated that the government MUST protect both the Jewish and the Democratic character of Israel, so integrating the populations of Gaza and the West Bank as full Israeli citizens like this would be unconstitutional, but integrating them as second class citizens would also be unconstitutional). So what is Israel's solution? Destroying Hamas is a pipe dream - the famine, death, and destruction they are pereptrating in Gaza today will, inevitably, create a new wave of terrorism, whether it's called "Hamas" or something else, as it always has throughout all of history. The only real solution is massive economic investments in Gaza and the West Bank, and relying on police-like peacekeeping to prevent attacks as much as possible. This is the obvious long-term solution, anything else will worsen, not improve, Israel's security.

shiroiushi 3y ago
>We actually have very clear examples from history of how to turn an enemy into a friend: the Marshall plan Japan, Germany, and Italy's people didn't practice a religion that required them to hate Americans. For Germany and Italy in particular, they followed (basically) the same religion as most Americans. Japan never really had much religion. And none of these WWII powers were theocratic states in any way, or governed by religious extremists. The idea that Israel and Gaza are somehow going to become staunch allies seems like a pipe dream. However, if you really do want to follow the WWII example, you're totally forgetting that the Allies completely flattened major cities and killed millions of civilians, intentionally, before finally getting unconditional surrenders from their enemies. Basically, one side had to hit rock-bottom before it could be built up again into an ally by the victor. Being so completely devastated and defeated in a major war caused the losing powers to collectively change, on a societal level, the way they viewed the world.

disgruntledphd2 3y ago

> What would be useful is a historic example where another approach has worked. I don't approve of Israel's methods. I'd prefer an egalitarian solution. But, I'm all out of ideas. Find me an instance of 2 co-habiting or neighboring groups that hate each other, have huge disputes and ended up in relative peace. Northern Ireland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_peace_process They still hate one another, but are mostly at peace.