6 ms·

> So Apple has their draconian 30% cut This notion that 30% is 'draconian' is curious since Steam -- on supposedly open PC -- costs devs more, and even 30% is

> So Apple has their draconian 30% cut This notion that 30% is 'draconian' is curious since Steam -- on supposedly open PC -- costs devs more, and even 30% is wrong since it's not 30% below a certain revenue level or in the second year onwards, again in line or less than stores on other platforms.

dns_snek 3y ago
The PC isn't "supposedly" open, but open. Steam do collect a 30% fee but crucially, they have to work for that fee by competing on core service quality and quality of life features (like cloud saves). Apple is perfectly entitled to ask for a 30% fee, as long as they allow for competition on equal footing (for clarity, this means they don't try to collect exorbitant rent from their competitors first). Let the free market sort it out.
- Aloisius 3y ago
  > and quality of life features (like cloud saves) You mean like CloudKit? Apple SDKs exist and do things - including everything Steamworks does and quite a bit more. If Apple decided to only allow apps distributed through them to use their SDKs or services, then would it would be fine because they'd be like Steam?
  - int_19h 3y ago
    As a user, I have to pay for iCloud storage for apps that use it. There is a free tier, sure... which most users will fill very quickly just with device backups and photos alone. I don't recall ever playing for cloud storage on Steam, though.
    - Aloisius 3y ago
      They have different QoS levels. Steam Cloud is truly a backup service. It's not fast even for tiny amounts of data. They'll even kick you over to an even slower lane if you store anything over 250 MB. Meanwhile, you can do near real-time app synchronization over iCloud between devices. But yeah, it'd be great if Apple bumped up the free tier size. That said, I've never actually had any problems storing app data on iCloud. Apple users seem to either pay for more storage or not backup to iCloud, so from a developer perspective, eh.
    - ElFitz 3y ago
      CloudKit uses the user’s iCloud storage for private containers and bills the developers (although it’s usually free) for "public" CloudKit containers[1]. [1]: https://developer.apple.com/icloud/cloudkit/ https://developer.apple.com/icloud/cloudkit/
jorvi 3y ago
If you don't like Steam's cut, you can go to Epic or GoG or Origin or Microsoft. If you don't like Apple's cut, you couldn't (effectively still can't because of the absurd 1 000 000 installs/updates rule) go to any other storefront. Before you bring up Xbox or Playstation: those devices are not essential computing devices. You can't function in modern society without access to both a computer and a smartphone. That puts a special burden on the companies that effectively own the software stack on those devices. Not that I see it happen, but lets paint a PC horror scenario: - Microsoft starts demanding to motherboard and laptop manufacturers to include their Pluton security chip - Secure Boot can no longer be disabled - They restructures the Windows kernel in such a way that DirectX is much faster than Vulkan - They only allow games on the Microsoft Store access to DirectX 12.3 and 13 - Hell, _anything_ not installed from the Microsoft Store has dark-pattern warning pop-ups that make it both too confusing and too scary for the layman to install things from outside the store - Microsoft also starts to demand a €0.50 fee from any developer that gets more than a million installs - with some updates counting towards installs. _This includes free applications_. Do you see the problem now? Apple is essentially doing all of these things.
- overstay8930 3y ago
  > Before you bring up Xbox or Playstation: those devices are not essential computing devices. Dude cmon this is not how the legal system works, you can't just pretend that there's such a thing as an "essential computing device" as if iPhones are a human right or some shit
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Human right? No. Human necessity in the modern world? Kinda yes. Some businesses are mobile-only now, not just mobile-first. And you need either a computer or a smartphone for many things now. You're really going to be locked out of a big part of normal life without a general computing device. An Xbox or PS5 is not needed to live a normal life (if you ask my girlfriend it's even the opposite :)
  - nmfisher 3y ago
    > Dude cmon this is not how the legal system works, you can't just pretend that there's such a thing as an "essential computing device" as if iPhones are a human right or some shit If I want to file my taxes (in Australia), I need an authentication app that's only available on iOS or Android. I can't use an Xbox or a Playstation. That's the difference.
fennecbutt 3y ago
Yes except Steam: * Takes their cut for games purchases on their store * Doesn't have any rules about in game payments/utxns, if you want to use steam wallet for that they'll take 30%, if you want to process the payment yourself or direct users to a website they don't care at all The last point is Apple's monopoly, along with no sideloading; because if I don't want to use Steam then I can use whatever else I want to. But I agree, 30% even just on games purchases is too high, and we should reduce this profiteering across the board, Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. Good thing we can multi task, right?

dns_snek 3y ago

The PC isn't "supposedly" open, but open. Steam do collect a 30% fee but crucially, they have to work for that fee by competing on core service quality and quality of life features (like cloud saves). Apple is perfectly entitled to ask for a 30% fee, as long as they allow for competition on equal footing (for clarity, this means they don't try to collect exorbitant rent from their competitors first). Let the free market sort it out.

Aloisius 3y ago
> and quality of life features (like cloud saves) You mean like CloudKit? Apple SDKs exist and do things - including everything Steamworks does and quite a bit more. If Apple decided to only allow apps distributed through them to use their SDKs or services, then would it would be fine because they'd be like Steam?
- int_19h 3y ago
  As a user, I have to pay for iCloud storage for apps that use it. There is a free tier, sure... which most users will fill very quickly just with device backups and photos alone. I don't recall ever playing for cloud storage on Steam, though.
  - Aloisius 3y ago
    They have different QoS levels. Steam Cloud is truly a backup service. It's not fast even for tiny amounts of data. They'll even kick you over to an even slower lane if you store anything over 250 MB. Meanwhile, you can do near real-time app synchronization over iCloud between devices. But yeah, it'd be great if Apple bumped up the free tier size. That said, I've never actually had any problems storing app data on iCloud. Apple users seem to either pay for more storage or not backup to iCloud, so from a developer perspective, eh.
  - ElFitz 3y ago
    CloudKit uses the user’s iCloud storage for private containers and bills the developers (although it’s usually free) for "public" CloudKit containers[1]. [1]: https://developer.apple.com/icloud/cloudkit/ https://developer.apple.com/icloud/cloudkit/

jorvi 3y ago

If you don't like Steam's cut, you can go to Epic or GoG or Origin or Microsoft. If you don't like Apple's cut, you couldn't (effectively still can't because of the absurd 1 000 000 installs/updates rule) go to any other storefront. Before you bring up Xbox or Playstation: those devices are not essential computing devices. You can't function in modern society without access to both a computer and a smartphone. That puts a special burden on the companies that effectively own the software stack on those devices. Not that I see it happen, but lets paint a PC horror scenario: - Microsoft starts demanding to motherboard and laptop manufacturers to include their Pluton security chip - Secure Boot can no longer be disabled - They restructures the Windows kernel in such a way that DirectX is much faster than Vulkan - They only allow games on the Microsoft Store access to DirectX 12.3 and 13 - Hell, _anything_ not installed from the Microsoft Store has dark-pattern warning pop-ups that make it both too confusing and too scary for the layman to install things from outside the store - Microsoft also starts to demand a €0.50 fee from any developer that gets more than a million installs - with some updates counting towards installs. _This includes free applications_. Do you see the problem now? Apple is essentially doing all of these things.

overstay8930 3y ago
> Before you bring up Xbox or Playstation: those devices are not essential computing devices. Dude cmon this is not how the legal system works, you can't just pretend that there's such a thing as an "essential computing device" as if iPhones are a human right or some shit
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Human right? No. Human necessity in the modern world? Kinda yes. Some businesses are mobile-only now, not just mobile-first. And you need either a computer or a smartphone for many things now. You're really going to be locked out of a big part of normal life without a general computing device. An Xbox or PS5 is not needed to live a normal life (if you ask my girlfriend it's even the opposite :)
- nmfisher 3y ago
  > Dude cmon this is not how the legal system works, you can't just pretend that there's such a thing as an "essential computing device" as if iPhones are a human right or some shit If I want to file my taxes (in Australia), I need an authentication app that's only available on iOS or Android. I can't use an Xbox or a Playstation. That's the difference.

fennecbutt 3y ago

Yes except Steam: * Takes their cut for games purchases on their store * Doesn't have any rules about in game payments/utxns, if you want to use steam wallet for that they'll take 30%, if you want to process the payment yourself or direct users to a website they don't care at all The last point is Apple's monopoly, along with no sideloading; because if I don't want to use Steam then I can use whatever else I want to. But I agree, 30% even just on games purchases is too high, and we should reduce this profiteering across the board, Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. Good thing we can multi task, right?