5 ms·

A lot of civilians being killed by the enemy driving global condemnation.

by hersko 3y ago

falcor84 3y ago
Are there any other examples from history where the goal of combatants was (or at least appeared to be) to maximize the destruction of their own side? If so, what were the outcomes of these?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Are there any other examples from history where the goal of combatants was (or at least appeared to be) to maximize the destruction of their own side? Every false flag operation designed to rally support for a conflict.
  - falcor84 3y ago
    I'm not quite clear on what you're implying here, but in any case I would prefer to find an example of a prolonged war rather than an isolated false flag operation.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > I would prefer to find an example of a prolonged war rather than an isolated false flag operation During the Chinese civil war, the Maoists let the Nationalists take a shellacking when convenient. And while I wouldn’t say America was conducive to civilian deaths on “our” side in Vietnam or Afghanistan, it clearly wasn’t something we optimised for: our priority was protecting our troops. Hamas is a paramilitary. It serves its own forces. The civilians of Palestine aren’t “its” people; they’re a battlefield element.
      - falcor84 3y ago
        Apologies for my ignorance, but aren't Hamas literally the government of Gaza? Have they been renounced by the population in favor of any other government?
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > aren't Hamas literally the government of Gaza? The Kims are the government of North Korea. That doesn’t mean they serve its people. > Have they been renounced by the population in favor of any other government? Difficult to tell. Hamas did away with elections in their 2007 coup [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)
        falcor84 3y ago
        Up until quite recently in history, the vast majority of countries have been controlled by unelected autocrats, and as you say, some still are. But I don't recall that ever bothered us from associating conflicts with the countries as a whole.
        marcosdumay 3y ago
        We mostly don't waste time dwelling on the ethics of long dead people, and the few that do are usually seen as some ivory-tower kinds without any concern for present issues. But rest assured that the people that study those things know quite well it's the country leaders declaring wars, not the people.
        falcor84 3y ago
        Point taken. But I'm still wondering where we should be drawing the line. For example, Russia has arguably not had fair and free elections for over two decades, so should we refrain from saying that there's a war between Russia and Ukraine and instead say that there's a war between Putin's party (United Russia) and Ukraine"?
        marcosdumay 3y ago
        If you believe Russians are somehow to blame for this war, you are completely deluded. Some (many) tens of thousands of people were arrested for complaining... But don't bother, their punishment was only half a year or so in prision... And in unrelated news, some (many) tens of thousands of Russian prisoners were sent to die at the Ukraine winter, on the frontline, without guns or even socks. But no, all Russians are in full support of this war. You can read all about this on the news.
    - NalNezumi 3y ago
      Mukden incident 1931. False flag operation that lead to the invasion of Manchuria by Japan.
- golergka 3y ago
  Gaza civilians are not on the Hamas “side”.
  - flyinglizard 3y ago
    Hamas is the sovereign in Gaza. It’s literally their elected government.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      You should check when the last election was. And even if the majority supports Hamas, it is NEVER a justification to target civilians.
      - diordiderot 3y ago
        72% isn't some[0]. Civilians aren't targeted just collateral damage. 0:https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2013%20(Reuters),respected%20Palestinian%20polling%20institute%20found https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palesti....
        hef19898 3y ago
        If you select target liberally enough, classify combatants on liberal enough criteria and use munition liberal enough, as shown by IDF reports, numbers and whistelblower accounts, the colleteral damage becomes the target. And hell, you are really surprised after everything Israel did in Gaza so far, that support for Hamas rises? Really? I suggest to whatch the first season of Andor for an in-depth explanation of why a hard crackdown is usually only hardening resistence.
        golergka 3y ago
        [flagged]

A lot of civilians being killed by the enemy driving global condemnation.

by hersko 3y ago

A lot of civilians being killed by the enemy driving global condemnation.

Are there any other examples from history where the goal of combatants was (or at least appeared to be) to maximize the destruction of their own side? If so, what were the outcomes of these?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Are there any other examples from history where the goal of combatants was (or at least appeared to be) to maximize the destruction of their own side? Every false flag operation designed to rally support for a conflict.
- falcor84 3y ago
  I'm not quite clear on what you're implying here, but in any case I would prefer to find an example of a prolonged war rather than an isolated false flag operation.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > I would prefer to find an example of a prolonged war rather than an isolated false flag operation During the Chinese civil war, the Maoists let the Nationalists take a shellacking when convenient. And while I wouldn’t say America was conducive to civilian deaths on “our” side in Vietnam or Afghanistan, it clearly wasn’t something we optimised for: our priority was protecting our troops. Hamas is a paramilitary. It serves its own forces. The civilians of Palestine aren’t “its” people; they’re a battlefield element.
    - falcor84 3y ago
      Apologies for my ignorance, but aren't Hamas literally the government of Gaza? Have they been renounced by the population in favor of any other government?
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > aren't Hamas literally the government of Gaza? The Kims are the government of North Korea. That doesn’t mean they serve its people. > Have they been renounced by the population in favor of any other government? Difficult to tell. Hamas did away with elections in their 2007 coup [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)
        falcor84 3y ago
        Up until quite recently in history, the vast majority of countries have been controlled by unelected autocrats, and as you say, some still are. But I don't recall that ever bothered us from associating conflicts with the countries as a whole.
        marcosdumay 3y ago
        We mostly don't waste time dwelling on the ethics of long dead people, and the few that do are usually seen as some ivory-tower kinds without any concern for present issues. But rest assured that the people that study those things know quite well it's the country leaders declaring wars, not the people.
        falcor84 3y ago
        Point taken. But I'm still wondering where we should be drawing the line. For example, Russia has arguably not had fair and free elections for over two decades, so should we refrain from saying that there's a war between Russia and Ukraine and instead say that there's a war between Putin's party (United Russia) and Ukraine"?
        marcosdumay 3y ago
        If you believe Russians are somehow to blame for this war, you are completely deluded. Some (many) tens of thousands of people were arrested for complaining... But don't bother, their punishment was only half a year or so in prision... And in unrelated news, some (many) tens of thousands of Russian prisoners were sent to die at the Ukraine winter, on the frontline, without guns or even socks. But no, all Russians are in full support of this war. You can read all about this on the news.
  - NalNezumi 3y ago
    Mukden incident 1931. False flag operation that lead to the invasion of Manchuria by Japan.
golergka 3y ago
Gaza civilians are not on the Hamas “side”.
- flyinglizard 3y ago
  Hamas is the sovereign in Gaza. It’s literally their elected government.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    You should check when the last election was. And even if the majority supports Hamas, it is NEVER a justification to target civilians.
    - diordiderot 3y ago
      72% isn't some[0]. Civilians aren't targeted just collateral damage. 0:https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/#:~:text=JERUSALEM%2C%20Dec%2013%20(Reuters),respected%20Palestinian%20polling%20institute%20found https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palesti....
      - hef19898 3y ago
        If you select target liberally enough, classify combatants on liberal enough criteria and use munition liberal enough, as shown by IDF reports, numbers and whistelblower accounts, the colleteral damage becomes the target. And hell, you are really surprised after everything Israel did in Gaza so far, that support for Hamas rises? Really? I suggest to whatch the first season of Andor for an in-depth explanation of why a hard crackdown is usually only hardening resistence.
        golergka 3y ago
        [flagged]