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That may be true but a couple things have changed since those very dated sample points. (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists (3) willingnes
by boringg 3y ago
That may be true but a couple things have changed since those very dated sample points. (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists (3) willingness to be on the very front lines in order to get better stories (4) technology enabling journalists thus being able to be more dangerous spots. (5) speculation -> journalists who are using press credentials as cover
I'm neither way on the conflict but want to correct some of your arguments assumptions that lead your conclusion astray.
- henry2023 3y agoAre we seeing the same percentage of journalists killed by the Russian army in Ukraine?
- boringg 3y agoTotally different war structure.
- ethanbond 3y agoThe onus of protecting journalists (and medical workers) falls on the military regardless of how difficult the war they’re trying to prosecute is. How many journalists did the US kill in 20 years of OEF/OIF?
- boringg 3y agoI'm not condoning the death of anyone. I am however pointing out the very significant differences between what the original comment is referring to and what is happening and what might be driving the largest (if true) difference in numbers.
- ethanbond 3y agoI didn’t say you were. I am pointing out a more directly analogous war to demonstrate that similar militaries have waged similar wars against similar adversaries for far, far greater spans of time yielding far fewer journalist deaths. I am also pointing out that “this war is extra hard to prosecute” is not actually justification for certain actions. The difficulty of fighting the war falls on the people fighting the war, including the difficulty of protecting civilians during that war. What else would any standards or laws mean if that weren’t the case? The whole premise of these standards is to set a ceiling on what sort of awful conditions can be allowed during warfare.
- ryanwhitney 3y agoThirteen for OIF: https://cpj.org/reports/2006/01/js-killed-by-us-13sept05/ https://cpj.org/reports/2006/01/js-killed-by-us-13sept05/
- ninininino 3y ago> The onus of protecting journalists (and medical workers) falls on the military regardless of how difficult the war they’re trying to prosecute is. No it doesn't? Just searched the International Criminal Court's English document on war crimes, genocide, and crimes against humanity for 'journalist' and found no results. https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Elements-of-Crimes.pdf https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Ele...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ethanbond 3y ago1. Onus doesn’t mean legal requirement. Civilized nations can be, should be, and generally are held to standards far exceeding legal statutes. 2. They DO have an actual legal obligation to protect journalists as well, try searching for “civilian.” If they are targeting journalists (read: civilians) that would obviously be illegal.
- ninininino 3y agoYou said "protecting" and protection is far different from "not target". We have laws for an important reason, without them it's up to any individual to decide for themselves what is just at any given moment. What happens when Israel decides that what's fair and just seems barbaric to you or me? We agree on the rules ahead of time so that we can act accordingly. If you want war crimes to include "must protect journalists", then I'd suggest your best chance at realizing that goal would be to get the legal codes modified. You said journalists, not civilians. If you want to talk about civilians now not journalists, that's a new topic.
- bawolff 3y ago> Onus doesn’t mean legal requirement. Civilized nations can be, should be, and generally are held to standards far exceeding legal statutes. Are they? USA literally has a law on the books that authorizes bombing the netherlands if any of their troops are ever held responsible. Trump pardoned 4 people who masacared civilians (including 2 children) in Iraq The west doesn't just not go beyond the legal requirements, it flouts the legal requirements when convinent.
- bawolff 3y agoI think the argument is that its a lot easier to protect journalists if there are very few journalists in the war zone, so absolute numbers are the wrong way to look at it. Essentially base rate fallacy.
- kaba0 3y agoSo you don’t think there is a difference between a huge front across a country, and a tiny blob of very densely packed land, with a huge population density? Just something as simple as the chance of a bomb exploding near you is significantly higher in case of one.
- ethanbond 3y agoI think the US chose not to level Baghdad and if it had, it would’ve been at least as catastrophic as what’s going on in Gaza. So no it’s not merely a matter of a different situation, it’s a matter of different decisions.
- mateo1 3y ago[flagged]
- throwaway894345 3y ago[flagged]
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- woooooo 3y agoThe Israelis are the ones setting those parameters and creating the conditions, though. It's not a "gotcha" to point out that journalists are also affected along with the other noncombatants.
- throwaway894345 3y ago[flagged]
- Qem 3y ago> but all you can muster is evidence that journalists are not being targeted but are rather being killed at rates of other civilians. No, they are being killed at much faster rate, to the point of depletion in relation to other civilians. Look at this plot: https://imgur.com/a/SWNSYOn https://imgur.com/a/SWNSYOn In my first post in this thread I did a detailed estimate that for the curve to bend this way, the journalists must be decimated with odds between 51:1 - 96:1 higher when compared to other civilians. This post got heavily downvoted and now sits at the bottom of the thread, but you can read the full explanation there.
- kaba0 3y agoIs it actually a reasonable assumption that journalists die at the same rate as civilians? Arguably, journalists are much more susceptible to go to dangerous places, close to actual combat, etc, for better videos.
- wolverine876 3y agoIt's a very imperfect comparison, but at least it's a factual basis. If you have better data, please share it.
- karim79 3y agoI agree. In Ukraine, combatants are not fighting from within an overpopulated prison camp.
- incognos 3y agoSorry, correction, Concentration Camp would be a proper term in this case. Prison implies a crime, the only crime is that they are born in an occupied land by a brutal occupier.
- hathym 3y agoagree, this is not war. this is a genocide
- pvg 3y agoYes if you google 'how many journalists died in WW2' in Russian you get numbers from a couple of hundred to over a thousand for the Soviet Union alone. The 69 number listed at https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30embed.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30embed.... is almost certainly just US journalists.
- sitkack 3y agoThe vast majority of all deaths in the WW2 were Soviet. The Soviet Union really deserves the gold medal position for winning WW2.
- Wolfenstein98k 3y ago[flagged]
- sitkack 3y ago[flagged]
- brtln 3y ago[flagged]
- shiroiushi 3y agoI thought it was started by the guy who murdered Archduke Ferdinand.
- hef19898 3y agoThat was WW1, and even then it was Austria-Hungary's reaction to it, backed by Germany in combination with the political climate that started it.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
- wolverine876 3y ago> (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists (3) willingness to be on the very front lines in order to get better stories (4) technology enabling journalists thus being able to be more dangerous spots. How have these things changed, and how have the changes affected the number of journalists killed? The changes could reduce the number. My point is, we need much less speculation and possibilities, and much more credible fact. CPJ provides some credible fact.
- czl 3y agoInternet does not allow nearly all to be publishers? Does not foster many small online news sources? Has number of news sources not gone up with rise of the internet? Outsourcing of news collection by global news sources to (technology connected) hired locals has not gone up? Number doing (and claiming to be doing) journalism has not gone up?
- hmcq6 3y agoBut the claim isn't that a guy who happened to be on TikTok at the time was hit by a bomb. The claim is Israel is killing people in bright blue vests marked PRESS and in cars with PRESS written across the sides and roof.
- chefandy 3y agoTFA has a list of those included, who they worked for, and the circumstances of their death. I saw one that was only credited with having a podcast (which has 225k followers on their instagram account,) and a few others that seemed to work for smaller local websites and whatnot, but it seems like the vast majority had affiliations with established news agencies.
- akira2501 3y ago1) Small size of theater. 2) Asymmetry between forces. 3) No escape route.
- Auracle 3y agoYou also forgot (6) fighting a force that doesn't wear uniforms.
- incognos 3y agoThey do... the qassam brigades (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=qassam+brigades&atb=v340-1&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=qassam+brigades&atb=v340-1&iax=ima...) Besides, not sure Israel would allow them to import the uniforms.
- inemesitaffia 3y agoThey can get them the same way they acquire other things
- tyingq 3y agoSome of the individual incidents do point pretty strongly to deliberate acts. The incidents in Lebanon, for example, rule out a lot of the "proximity" reasoning, as do the methods and types of weapons.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]