6 ms·

Besides the statistics I advise anyone to also look at the reports of how the individual deaths happened, I've seen them very little discussed in western media.

by g-b-r 3y ago

Besides the statistics I advise anyone to also look at the reports of how the individual deaths happened, I've seen them very little discussed in western media. There's often enough evidence to show an extremely likely deliberate killing (usually with weapons that Hamas doesn't have). Journalists have been killed outside of the Gaza strip as well. Just make your own informed opinion. Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on the ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from entering, I think this prohibition alone should be considered unacceptable in the 21 century

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> evidence to show an extremely likely deliberate killing Do you have examples?
- g-b-r 3y ago
  https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-... is a good independent source to get started (see also https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-censorship-the-high-risks-of-reporting-the-israel-hamas-war https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-censorship-t...)
  - bkirkby 3y ago
    there appears to be no effort by cpj to determine if the journalists were killed by palestinians or israelis. is that accurate?
    - blast 3y ago
      All the examples I looked at say killed by Israeli airstrike or Israeli sniper.
loceng 3y ago
It's also worth seeing if there's a historical pattern of behaviour: "One Martyr Down: The Untold Story Of A Canadian Peacekeeper Killed At War" - https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-of-a-canadian-peacekeeper-killed-at-war/ https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-... A Canadian Army Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener was assassinated after the IDF "accidentally" bombed a United Nations post that he was posted at - soon after he reported war crimes that he witnessed the IDF doing.
- adamckay 3y ago
  For context, Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener emailed [1] days before saying that Hezbollah were using his positions and the IDF was being forced to fire on them out of "tactical necessity". This isn't as clear-cut as you're attempting to paint it. 1 - https://web.archive.org/web/20061010012455/http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50 https://web.archive.org/web/20061010012455/http://www.canada...
  - loceng 3y ago
    From the same article: A senior UN official, asked about the information contained in Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail concerning Hezbollah presence in the vicinity of the Khiam base, denied the world body had been caught in a contradiction. "At the time, there had been no Hezbollah activity reported in the area," he said. "So it was quite clear they were not going after other targets; that, for whatever reason, our position was being fired upon. "Whether or not they thought they were going after something else, we don't know. The fact was, we told them where we were. They knew where we were. The position was clearly marked, and they pounded the hell out of us." --- This part states the area was being bombed prior to reports of Hezbollah activity in the area, so yes - the confusion will muddy it. Nonetheless, he had recently reported IDF war crimes - and the IDF at minimum coincidentally was responsible for killing him; with this seemingly contradictory statement by a senior UN official.
    - loceng 3y ago
      *wasn't
itsoktocry 3y ago
>Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on the ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from entering, I think this prohibition alone should be considered unacceptable in the 21 century I think the prohibition is wrong, but what do you think "real journalists" can offer people that isn't already being spread around? We are inundated with stories from this conflict; what is CNN going to add to the conversation? Most of these outlets are mouthpieces for their respective governments anyway, their point-of-view is predictable.
- nsguy 3y ago
  The Hamas may(?) have less leverage over foreign reporters. For local reporters there's a history of Hamas threatening and using violence against the reporters and their families to get the kind of reporting they want. I agree with the observation that many of those outlets are mouthpieces for their respective government though. Here are a few references to keep in mind when thinking about journalists working in Gaza (or you can think about Russia, Iran, North Korea, maybe China as being similar): https://www.amnesty.ca/human-rights-news/gaza-hamas-must-end-brutal-crackdown-against-protesters-and-rights-defenders/ https://www.amnesty.ca/human-rights-news/gaza-hamas-must-end... "The Gaza Strip is a particularly inhospitable territory for press freedom. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad harass and obstruct journalists suspected of collaborating with Israel," - https://rsf.org/en/country/palestine https://rsf.org/en/country/palestine "Gaza: Journalist facing prison term for exposing corruption in Hamas-controlled ministry" - https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/02/gaza-journalist-facing-prison-term-for-exposing-corruption-in-hamas-controlled-ministry/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/02/gaza-journali... "The Palestinian authorities in the West Bank and Gaza are arresting, abusing, and criminally charging journalists and activists who express peaceful criticism of the authorities. ... Both Palestinian governments, operating independently, have apparently arrived at similar methods of harassment, intimidation and physical abuse of anyone who dares criticize them. ... The media freedom group MADA documented 192 incidents in 2015 in which Palestinian authorities infringed on journalists’ right to free expression through summoning and interrogation, arrests, physical assault, detention, and, in Gaza, forbidding journalists from reporting on certain issues or stories. That was a 68 percent increase over 2014. The pattern of abuse that MADA reported, including beatings, torture, warnings to stop criticizing the government, and seizing passwords to search social media accounts, is consistent with the cases Human Rights Watch documented." - https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/08/30/palestine-crackdown-journalists-activists https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/08/30/palestine-crackdown-jour... Isra Al-Mudalla, the head of foreign relations in Hamas’s Information Ministry said, "The security agencies would go and have a chat with these people. They would give them some time to change their message, one way or another." ... “Some of the journalists who entered the Gaza Strip were under security surveillance. Even under these difficult circumstances, we managed to reach them, and tell them that what they were doing was anything but professional journalism and that it was immoral.” - https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-admits-intimidating-foreign-press-who-reported-wrong-message/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-admits-intimidating-fore... https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-government-spokesperson-we-deported-foreign-journalists-filming-missile-launches https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-government-spokesperson-we-de...
jll29 3y ago
War is nasty, it brings out the worst in people. Look at this, listen to their laughter while conducting their "work": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfvFpT-iypw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfvFpT-iypw (2007) "The video shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad after they are apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded. They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred." (We may not have such detailed coverage for Gaza that we have for Baghdad, which is of course also caused by the lack of journalists, since who is dead can no longer report.)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- g-b-r 3y ago
  It can have a very wide range of nastiness
  - listless 3y ago
    It is hell. Every time. Many men who return with PTSD do so not because of what they saw, but because of what they did.
    - g-b-r 3y ago
      I don't know for soldiers, but for those on the other side there are clearly different levels of hell
wolverine876 3y ago
It would be great if you could share some of this credible evidence. There are so many loose claims flying around ... > Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on the ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from entering, I think this prohibition alone should be considered unacceptable in the 21 century Access to war zones has been limited commonly, IIRC, at least since the Iraq war. In Ukraine, journalists talk about government cooperation and, IIRC, approval. If you are thinking about Vietnam, I think that has become more of the exception than the rule. (I think that in a free society, it should be the rule.)

by g-b-r 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> evidence to show an extremely likely deliberate killing Do you have examples?

g-b-r 3y ago
https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-... is a good independent source to get started (see also https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-censorship-the-high-risks-of-reporting-the-israel-hamas-war https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-censorship-t...)
- bkirkby 3y ago
  there appears to be no effort by cpj to determine if the journalists were killed by palestinians or israelis. is that accurate?
  - blast 3y ago
    All the examples I looked at say killed by Israeli airstrike or Israeli sniper.

loceng 3y ago

It's also worth seeing if there's a historical pattern of behaviour: "One Martyr Down: The Untold Story Of A Canadian Peacekeeper Killed At War" - https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-of-a-canadian-peacekeeper-killed-at-war/ https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-... A Canadian Army Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener was assassinated after the IDF "accidentally" bombed a United Nations post that he was posted at - soon after he reported war crimes that he witnessed the IDF doing.

adamckay 3y ago
For context, Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener emailed [1] days before saying that Hezbollah were using his positions and the IDF was being forced to fire on them out of "tactical necessity". This isn't as clear-cut as you're attempting to paint it. 1 - https://web.archive.org/web/20061010012455/http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50 https://web.archive.org/web/20061010012455/http://www.canada...
- loceng 3y ago
  From the same article: A senior UN official, asked about the information contained in Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail concerning Hezbollah presence in the vicinity of the Khiam base, denied the world body had been caught in a contradiction. "At the time, there had been no Hezbollah activity reported in the area," he said. "So it was quite clear they were not going after other targets; that, for whatever reason, our position was being fired upon. "Whether or not they thought they were going after something else, we don't know. The fact was, we told them where we were. They knew where we were. The position was clearly marked, and they pounded the hell out of us." --- This part states the area was being bombed prior to reports of Hezbollah activity in the area, so yes - the confusion will muddy it. Nonetheless, he had recently reported IDF war crimes - and the IDF at minimum coincidentally was responsible for killing him; with this seemingly contradictory statement by a senior UN official.
  - loceng 3y ago
    *wasn't

itsoktocry 3y ago

>Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on the ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from entering, I think this prohibition alone should be considered unacceptable in the 21 century I think the prohibition is wrong, but what do you think "real journalists" can offer people that isn't already being spread around? We are inundated with stories from this conflict; what is CNN going to add to the conversation? Most of these outlets are mouthpieces for their respective governments anyway, their point-of-view is predictable.

nsguy 3y ago
The Hamas may(?) have less leverage over foreign reporters. For local reporters there's a history of Hamas threatening and using violence against the reporters and their families to get the kind of reporting they want. I agree with the observation that many of those outlets are mouthpieces for their respective government though. Here are a few references to keep in mind when thinking about journalists working in Gaza (or you can think about Russia, Iran, North Korea, maybe China as being similar): https://www.amnesty.ca/human-rights-news/gaza-hamas-must-end-brutal-crackdown-against-protesters-and-rights-defenders/ https://www.amnesty.ca/human-rights-news/gaza-hamas-must-end... "The Gaza Strip is a particularly inhospitable territory for press freedom. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad harass and obstruct journalists suspected of collaborating with Israel," - https://rsf.org/en/country/palestine https://rsf.org/en/country/palestine "Gaza: Journalist facing prison term for exposing corruption in Hamas-controlled ministry" - https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/02/gaza-journalist-facing-prison-term-for-exposing-corruption-in-hamas-controlled-ministry/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/02/gaza-journali... "The Palestinian authorities in the West Bank and Gaza are arresting, abusing, and criminally charging journalists and activists who express peaceful criticism of the authorities. ... Both Palestinian governments, operating independently, have apparently arrived at similar methods of harassment, intimidation and physical abuse of anyone who dares criticize them. ... The media freedom group MADA documented 192 incidents in 2015 in which Palestinian authorities infringed on journalists’ right to free expression through summoning and interrogation, arrests, physical assault, detention, and, in Gaza, forbidding journalists from reporting on certain issues or stories. That was a 68 percent increase over 2014. The pattern of abuse that MADA reported, including beatings, torture, warnings to stop criticizing the government, and seizing passwords to search social media accounts, is consistent with the cases Human Rights Watch documented." - https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/08/30/palestine-crackdown-journalists-activists https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/08/30/palestine-crackdown-jour... Isra Al-Mudalla, the head of foreign relations in Hamas’s Information Ministry said, "The security agencies would go and have a chat with these people. They would give them some time to change their message, one way or another." ... “Some of the journalists who entered the Gaza Strip were under security surveillance. Even under these difficult circumstances, we managed to reach them, and tell them that what they were doing was anything but professional journalism and that it was immoral.” - https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-admits-intimidating-foreign-press-who-reported-wrong-message/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-admits-intimidating-fore... https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-government-spokesperson-we-deported-foreign-journalists-filming-missile-launches https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-government-spokesperson-we-de...

jll29 3y ago

War is nasty, it brings out the worst in people. Look at this, listen to their laughter while conducting their "work": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfvFpT-iypw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfvFpT-iypw (2007) "The video shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad after they are apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded. They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred." (We may not have such detailed coverage for Gaza that we have for Baghdad, which is of course also caused by the lack of journalists, since who is dead can no longer report.)

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
g-b-r 3y ago
It can have a very wide range of nastiness
- listless 3y ago
  It is hell. Every time. Many men who return with PTSD do so not because of what they saw, but because of what they did.
  - g-b-r 3y ago
    I don't know for soldiers, but for those on the other side there are clearly different levels of hell

wolverine876 3y ago

It would be great if you could share some of this credible evidence. There are so many loose claims flying around ... > Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on the ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from entering, I think this prohibition alone should be considered unacceptable in the 21 century Access to war zones has been limited commonly, IIRC, at least since the Iraq war. In Ukraine, journalists talk about government cooperation and, IIRC, approval. If you are thinking about Vietnam, I think that has become more of the exception than the rule. (I think that in a free society, it should be the rule.)