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Strongly disagree. This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. Yes we know that redd
by McNutty 3y ago
Strongly disagree. This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. Yes we know that reddit sucks but stop trying to make hn into reddit.
Also the community can't handle it, just look at the handful of comments we already have here.
- dang 3y agoHN's standard about this question has been stable for many years: some stories with political overlap are both inevitable and in keeping with the mandate of the site. The question, when it comes to the biggest political topics, is which stories clear that bar. I've posted about this many times, including quite a few explanations specific to the current topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 (Jan 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 (Dec 2023) Here are links to lots of past explanations I've given about the principles we use to decide these questions more generally: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20major%20ongoing%20topic&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
- leereeves 3y agoIf this topic merits discussion on HN, can you do something about the flagging? It seems like someone is flagging every comment to prevent discussion.
- dang 3y agoEdit: oh, you were asking about comments. In my haste I missed that and thought you were asking about submissions. There are lots of comments in this thread that aren't flagged, so discussion isn't being prevented. It's true that a lot of the earlier comments were flagged, but that was (or should be) because they were flamebait. It's one of the downsides of internet commenting that the flameiest and most reflexive comments appear first in a thread—because those reactions are the quickest to flare up. Better, more reflective comments always take longer [1]. This goes 1000x for a topic like this one, unfortunately. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=reflective%20reflex%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... -- original reply -- I've answered that several times in the links I listed; can you take a look and, if there's something specific I haven't addressed, let me know? (I don't mean to be dismissive—it just takes a surprising amount of time to write those things and I can't do it at the moment.)
- rat9988 3y agoIt's surprisingly dismissive. It's not that because not all of the comments aren't flagged that discussion isn't being prevented. And the (or should be) does most of the work when you talk about flagged are flagged because they were flamebait. I'm pretty sure it's not an easy task to moderate HN. But I'm still surprised by the answer here.
- dang 3y agoI'm sorry, but I don't follow your point here. Keep in mind that I was commenting about the situation very early in the thread. My comment applies only to the very first comments that got posted—perhaps the first couple dozen—no later.
- pastacacioepepe 3y agoI'm sorry to insist but there are groups here who abuse flagging as a censorship tool to suppress opinions they disagree with. Anything that goes against the status quo has a high chance of being flagged, I've seen this happen over and over and especially recently.
- hersko 3y agoHey Dang, huge fan of HN. How do you reconcile HN's political neutrality and the fact that almost every overtly political story that hits the front page about certain subjects[1] are blatantly biased on one side? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324
- dang 3y agoI think it's a legit concern and it worries me too. We can only go by the articles that users submit, and then only the subset we see, which is a function of (a) randomness and (b) users bringing specific cases to our attention. If there's a bias in the stories that have made HN's front page, that bias is present in the underlying data (I mean this stream of articles) to begin with. Why might that be? Well, there are a lot of possible reasons and people would most likely dispute about those as much as they do about the underlying topic. For what it's worth (which may not be much), all I can tell you is that we want deeply, and are trying hard, to be even-handed. At the same time, we're not going to apply some sort of mechanical both-sides balancing because, although it might make things superficially easier in the short term, I don't think it would be in the spirit of the site, and we don't do that about anything else. The even-handedness I'm talking about is probably easier to notice in our moderation of comments, so far, than of the articles. I feel pretty confident that we've done a good job of that [1], more than I am about the articles. Perhaps that's because there have been thousands of comments, but only a handful of frontpage articles, on the topic. One consistent lesson of HN is that you can't draw general conclusions from a handful of datapoints. It takes a lot more than that before reliable patterns show up. What matters to me is that there be principles underlying the moderation and that these get applied equally. This isn't fully achievable because there's always interpretation involved—we don't get every call right. But I think the principles are the right ones for HN (I've explained what these are in the links mentioned above), and I'm always open to hearing arguments about how to apply them more even-handedly. When people make a fair point, such as xyzelement did about the submitted URL of the OP (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39621225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39621225), we're happy to change something. Another example that sticks in my mind is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39146630 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39146630 from a few weeks ago. That was about title, not URL, but the principle is the same. I don't know how satisfactory this answer can possibly be but I hope it's at least clear that I hear you and care about the question. [1] That is, when people break HN's rules in the comments, such as by posting flamebait or snark or personal attack, we flag and/or reply and/or ban irrespective of what the commenter is for or against. It might not appear that way to many readers who have strong passions on a topic, but it's not as hard to do as one might assume, especially after 10 years of practice.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Qem 3y agoFor me this article raised a estimation problem that I deem as interesting as the German tank problem[1]. I took a crack at it. Wish to see what people with better statistical knowledge than me think of the data and the conclusions. I think my maths/stats intuition for problems like this is OK, but I lack rigour. [1]. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem
- aaomidi 3y ago[flagged]
- McNutty 3y ago[flagged]
- ciconia 3y ago> This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. What's a political post? What's "regular news"? And where do you draw the line? If not interested, you can just move on and ignore. There's plenty of AI articles all over the front page.
- McNutty 3y agoWhat is the appropriate number of times to "just move on and ignore" before finally deciding to say something because the integrity of hn as a platform is at risk?
- phone8675309 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- brookst 3y agoIs the integrity at risk from allowing difficult controversial subjects? Or from prohibiting them?
- hef19898 3y agoThe latter. There are two recent topics that ended in flagging and really low quality doscussions, no curiosity, no open mindedness and sometimes utter disregard of human rights: Caste based discrimination and the war in Gaza. The latter usually has "pro-Gaza" submissions flagged even faster than the former had for stuff critizing castes and caste based discrimination. I am torn, in the one hand those discussions are often rightfully flagged for the coments themselves. On the other hand, this shows a general social development I don't like, especially since HN used to be, or at least is suppossed to be, a place where even hairy topics can be discussed. And I think the "tech" community at large would only benefi from multiple views on those subjects.
- whatshisface 3y agoWe know and work with Israelis and former Palestinians, and it is difficult enough to navigate the stresses without the added complexity of each side reading totally different news outlets and never talking about it in the same forums. I always try to handle this stuff at work (and political issues are absolutely part of the lunchtime tapestry that impacts the cohesion of engineering teams) by sticking to the facts, but we need to agree on some shared reality for the facts to be a safe "home base" for diplomatic answers to the tough questions we can't avoid... I think it is very important for some amount of news to leak into the common spaces, as long as we can keep from arguing about it on a level higher than its veracity or importance.
- incognos 3y ago[flagged]
- sharikous 3y agoEven accepting that, you can ask what is the limit after which you can say that the occupied does morally reprehensible things
- incognos 3y agoHow about when the occupier does morally reprehensible things? how should you react? turn the other cheek? Thank you sir, may I have another... (https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc.htm https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/resources/documents/misc/634kfc....) Notably: The main rules o f the law applicable in case of occupation state that: The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory. Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period. The occupying power must respect the laws in force in the occupied territory, unless they constitute a threat to its security or an obstacle to the application of the international law of occupation. The occupying power must take measures to restore and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation. The population in occupied territory cannot be forced to enlist in the occupier's armed forces. Collective or individual forcible transfers of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited. Transfers of the civilian population of the occupying power into the occupied territory, regardless whether forcible or voluntary, are prohibited. Collective punishment is prohibited. The taking of hostages is prohibited. Reprisals against protected persons or their property are prohibited. The confiscation of private property by the occupant is prohibited. The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities. Cultural property must be respected. People accused of criminal offences shall be provided with proceedings respecting internationally recognized judicial guarantees (for example, they must be informed of the reason for their arrest, charg ed with a specific offence and given a fair trial as quickly as possible). Personnel of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent Movement must be allowed to carry out their humanitarian activities. The ICRC, in particular, must be given access to all protected persons, wherever they are, whether or not they are deprived of their liberty. None of which are being respected.... so I ask again, who is morally reprehensible? and if you are referring to the debunked lies about october 7th, I urge you to read up
- alexvoda 3y agoI believe it is impossible to disentangle non-politics (tech included) from politics because that in itself is a political stance.
- Wolfenstein98k 3y agoThat's actually the only way to disentangle it - by disentangling it. "colour-blindness is racism" is postmodernist garbage. Same for "everything is politics", a derivative of the same impulse. You aren't employed to discuss the relative merits of the Hutus or the Tutsis, whether they're at peace or at war!
- CivBase 3y agoWhen people talk about "politics" they aren't talking about it conceptually. They are talking about the myriad of controversial topics that are fiercely argued about by state political leaders and prominent political parties. But that's a mouthful so we call it "politics". Using the common meaning of "politics", it's very easy to sort the majority of subjects into "politics" and "non-politics".
- throwawayhate 3y agoIt took me a while to understand that "not being into politics" or "a political" is still a form of politics. Also, there is very little politics practiced without technology, so it can be harder to make it inextricable.
- immibis 3y agoUnfortunately, everything is politics and politics is inescapable. "Ignoring politics" is also a political action and a political statement.
- brookst 3y agoIndeed. Zone of Interest is a very impressive film that really explores the idea of ignoring politics.
- Wolfenstein98k 3y agoNo it isn't. You are perhaps obligated to take an interest in your own democracy, although that doesn't mean you're obligated to inject it into your workplace and every facet of life. You are by no means obligated to take an interest in wars on other continents. Especially not to subject your poor coworkers to your Gell-Man Amnesia-ridden opinions on it!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hathym 3y agoThe article discussing Russia's invasion of Ukraine has received a significant amount of engagement and upvotes on Hacker News. To be frank, I didn't expect that you would share a similar comment about this particular topic, would you?
- steve_gh 3y agoBy reading the comments on this post I have learned about non-central hypergeometric distributions - which I didn't know about (and turn out to be relevant to a bunch of problems I am thinking about for my job). HN readers and contributors at least try to think of themselves as the grown-ups in the room. So, by having conversations about contentious topics in a civilized and respectful way, we learn things.
- incognos 3y agoDid you strongly disagree on the numerous posts related to Ukraine and Russia which have appeared on this forum in the past? or is it the topic that bothers you? You cannot close your eyes to event in which your country is complicit. Ignorance is not an excuse.
- chiefalchemist 3y agoPerhaps. But if not us then who? Maybe it's not a matter of who we are, but who we should be? Easier said than done? Oh yeah, we're soft and lazy from a life diet high on - literally - coconvenience. Put another way, when we collectively decide "we can't talk about X or Y" the control of that topic gets outsourced: outsourced to "leaders" who evidently are less capable. In short, yes there is risk. But the alternatives consistently qualify as insanity.
- feedforward 3y agoWe see endless posts about the Chinese, the Russians and so on - now it is about Israel though so no more "political posts".
- ajsnigrutin 3y agoI agree with this. With many social networks, we have many platforms to discuss politics directly. IMHO, HN should keep to tech and not politics, with an exception of politics related to tech (eg. EU trying to destroy e2e encryption,... again,... government hacks, etc). We have literally everywhere else to pick sides and point fingers.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]