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This seems like a publicity stunt to me. No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple. The terms allow them to remove you for any

This seems like a publicity stunt to me. No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple. The terms allow them to remove you for any reason and not disclose it.

disgruntledphd2 3y ago
Given the DMA, Apple are required to allow people to develop other App Stores. If they can kick off anyone who decides to do that, then the law is entirely pointless (and the EU commission are likely to be upset).
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  Sure, they are required to allow people to develop other App Stores. They can also add any number of other policies which you probably run afoul of several times a day. Then terminate you for that. You can still develop your app store, you just can't break all the rules to develop your app store.
  - afavour 3y ago
    ...which is exactly the kind of thing the EU Commission will punish them for. If they create a bunch of new rules and only punish those who are developing their own app stores they haven't given themselves a magic get out of jail free card, it'll be very obvious to everyone what is going on.
  - stale2002 3y ago
    > Then terminate you for that And then the EU takes them to court and fines them billions of dollars. The rest of the world doesn't have to stand still. They can just confiscate Apple's money using threat of government force.
    - nozzlegear 3y ago
      > The rest of the world doesn't have to stand still. They can just confiscate Apple's money using threat of government force. But surely the US would not just stand still either while the rest of the world plunders one of its most successful megacorps/source of American influence.
      - stale2002 3y ago
        The USA is likely to side with the EU, actually. The US government is literally right now trying to sue Apple for similar anti trust crimes. If anything, what would happen is that the USA would finish its lawsuit and force Apple to end its illegal and anti completive behavior worldwide, instead of just in the EU.
        nozzlegear 3y ago
        Interesting, I didn't know the US was suing Apple right now for similar things. I don't follow it too closely, just what I see here on HN. Thanks for the info, I'll read up on it.
sokoloff 3y ago
> No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple. Really? I would 100% expect most any large company selling anything into the computing or computing-adjacent space to have an Apple dev account and a Play Store account. My supermarket chain has an Apple dev account. Target has an Apple dev account. (Both presumably have Play Store accounts as well.) If those brick-and-mortar companies can manage to reach their customers that way, it was more surprising to me that Epic didn't have one previously than the converse.
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  Is Target actively hostile to the platform provider they have dev accounts with?
- nixgeek 3y ago
  I doubt your supermarket chain has done things which rise to Phil Schiller responding to Epic with — > We welcome all developers to the Developer Program so long as they follow the rules. Those rules, including the DPLA and the App Store Review Guidelines, are intended to protect the integrity of the ecosystem, developers large and small, and - most importantly-users. Accordingly, developers who are unable or unwilling to keep their promises can't continue to participate in the Developer Program. > In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them. For example, you testified that Epic Games, Inc. entered into the Developer Program with full understanding of its terms, and then chose to intentionally breach the agreement with Apple. You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple's rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance plan as "hot garbage," a "horror show," and a "devious new instance of Malicious Compliance." And you have complained about what you called "Junk Fees" and "Apple taxes." > Your colorful criticism of our DMA compliance plan, coupled with Epic's past practice of intentionally violating contractual provisions with which it disagrees, strongly suggest that Epic Sweden does not intend to follow the rules. Another intentional breach could threaten the integrity of the iOS platform, as well as the security and privacy of users. > You have stated that allowing enrollment of Epic Games Sweden in the Developer Program is "a good faith move by Apple." We invite you to provide us with written assurance that you are also acting in good faith, and that Epic Games Sweden will, despite your public actions and rhetoric, honor all of its commitments. In plain, unqualified terms, please tell us why we should trust Epic this time.
andersa 3y ago
Their terms are not relevant, Apple has no authority over the DMA.
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  so if I set up my own app store with nothing but apps designed to scam people, Apple has to allow me to do it?
  - BearOso 3y ago
    You could, but few people are going to fall for that. Are you offering something that would entice people away, something huge like Fortnite? Most non-technical people will stick with the App store.
  - fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
    My guess is that since fraud is presumably illegal in the EU, scam developers are not protected by the DMA. But I don't know EU law and didn't read the full text of the DMA although I did read some of the English version a while ago,
  - hu3 3y ago
    App Store is already rampant with scams so nothing new under the sun. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/06/06/apple-app-store-scams-fraud/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/06/06/apple-a... https://mashable.com/article/apple-mac-app-store-scam-forces-paid-subscriptions https://mashable.com/article/apple-mac-app-store-scam-forces... https://tech.hindustantimes.com/tech/news/84-dangerous-scam-apps-found-on-iphone-app-store-your-stealing-money-check-full-list-of-apps-71658128703429.html https://tech.hindustantimes.com/tech/news/84-dangerous-scam-...
    - nozzlegear 3y ago
      This doesn’t answer the question though.

This seems like a publicity stunt to me. No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple. The terms allow them to remove you for any reason and not disclose it.

disgruntledphd2 3y ago

Given the DMA, Apple are required to allow people to develop other App Stores. If they can kick off anyone who decides to do that, then the law is entirely pointless (and the EU commission are likely to be upset).

sidewndr46 3y ago
Sure, they are required to allow people to develop other App Stores. They can also add any number of other policies which you probably run afoul of several times a day. Then terminate you for that. You can still develop your app store, you just can't break all the rules to develop your app store.
- afavour 3y ago
  ...which is exactly the kind of thing the EU Commission will punish them for. If they create a bunch of new rules and only punish those who are developing their own app stores they haven't given themselves a magic get out of jail free card, it'll be very obvious to everyone what is going on.
- stale2002 3y ago
  > Then terminate you for that And then the EU takes them to court and fines them billions of dollars. The rest of the world doesn't have to stand still. They can just confiscate Apple's money using threat of government force.
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    > The rest of the world doesn't have to stand still. They can just confiscate Apple's money using threat of government force. But surely the US would not just stand still either while the rest of the world plunders one of its most successful megacorps/source of American influence.
    - stale2002 3y ago
      The USA is likely to side with the EU, actually. The US government is literally right now trying to sue Apple for similar anti trust crimes. If anything, what would happen is that the USA would finish its lawsuit and force Apple to end its illegal and anti completive behavior worldwide, instead of just in the EU.
      - nozzlegear 3y ago
        Interesting, I didn't know the US was suing Apple right now for similar things. I don't follow it too closely, just what I see here on HN. Thanks for the info, I'll read up on it.

sokoloff 3y ago

> No one would rationally expect Epic to have a developer account with Apple. Really? I would 100% expect most any large company selling anything into the computing or computing-adjacent space to have an Apple dev account and a Play Store account. My supermarket chain has an Apple dev account. Target has an Apple dev account. (Both presumably have Play Store accounts as well.) If those brick-and-mortar companies can manage to reach their customers that way, it was more surprising to me that Epic didn't have one previously than the converse.

sidewndr46 3y ago
Is Target actively hostile to the platform provider they have dev accounts with?
nixgeek 3y ago
I doubt your supermarket chain has done things which rise to Phil Schiller responding to Epic with — > We welcome all developers to the Developer Program so long as they follow the rules. Those rules, including the DPLA and the App Store Review Guidelines, are intended to protect the integrity of the ecosystem, developers large and small, and - most importantly-users. Accordingly, developers who are unable or unwilling to keep their promises can't continue to participate in the Developer Program. > In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them. For example, you testified that Epic Games, Inc. entered into the Developer Program with full understanding of its terms, and then chose to intentionally breach the agreement with Apple. You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple's rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance plan as "hot garbage," a "horror show," and a "devious new instance of Malicious Compliance." And you have complained about what you called "Junk Fees" and "Apple taxes." > Your colorful criticism of our DMA compliance plan, coupled with Epic's past practice of intentionally violating contractual provisions with which it disagrees, strongly suggest that Epic Sweden does not intend to follow the rules. Another intentional breach could threaten the integrity of the iOS platform, as well as the security and privacy of users. > You have stated that allowing enrollment of Epic Games Sweden in the Developer Program is "a good faith move by Apple." We invite you to provide us with written assurance that you are also acting in good faith, and that Epic Games Sweden will, despite your public actions and rhetoric, honor all of its commitments. In plain, unqualified terms, please tell us why we should trust Epic this time.

andersa 3y ago

Their terms are not relevant, Apple has no authority over the DMA.

sidewndr46 3y ago
so if I set up my own app store with nothing but apps designed to scam people, Apple has to allow me to do it?
- BearOso 3y ago
  You could, but few people are going to fall for that. Are you offering something that would entice people away, something huge like Fortnite? Most non-technical people will stick with the App store.
- fngjdflmdflg 3y ago
  My guess is that since fraud is presumably illegal in the EU, scam developers are not protected by the DMA. But I don't know EU law and didn't read the full text of the DMA although I did read some of the English version a while ago,
- hu3 3y ago
  App Store is already rampant with scams so nothing new under the sun. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/06/06/apple-app-store-scams-fraud/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/06/06/apple-a... https://mashable.com/article/apple-mac-app-store-scam-forces-paid-subscriptions https://mashable.com/article/apple-mac-app-store-scam-forces... https://tech.hindustantimes.com/tech/news/84-dangerous-scam-apps-found-on-iphone-app-store-your-stealing-money-check-full-list-of-apps-71658128703429.html https://tech.hindustantimes.com/tech/news/84-dangerous-scam-...
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    This doesn’t answer the question though.