10 ms·

> Formal/business language has higher association with prestigious jobs than informal/street/urban language. How is that even classified as "bias"? Judging peo

> Formal/business language has higher association with prestigious jobs than informal/street/urban language. How is that even classified as "bias"? Judging people's fitness for a job based on the dialect of English that they speak is by definition a form of bias. That it's bias that is also reflected in the workplace pre-LLMs doesn't make it not bias.

aaron695 3y ago
I don't say cunt in a job interview. Obviously as a normal person I'll say that in normal life and in most work situations. So if a dumb cunt can't show they know what to do in a interview I'll judge them on that.
brvsft 3y ago
If most of my employees can’t understand the way someone speaks or writes, it’s likely that person will have problems communicating ideas within the organization. Also, by definition where? You’re just making this up, there isn’t an authoritative dictionary or even regulation that states judging fitness for a job based on the dialect of English a person speaks is “bias.” If there was, surely you would have provided a link instead of just asserting your own correctness.
leereeves 3y ago
The high prestige jobs the LLMs associated with SAE mostly require higher education, usually post-graduate. Perhaps the model is only accurately learning that more educated people use a particular dialect of English taught by universities. There's really no way to tell, because the researchers didn't include other dialects of English that aren't favored by universities, like southern, or Yorkshire.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
Alright, but I think their point is "bias as reflected in the real world." There's a bias against hiring people that don't speak English at all for English speaking jobs, I don't think anyone of sound mind would call that xenophobia. Critically what we are trying to find out with the LLMs is if there is bias beyond social acceptability or beyond job requirements. If you wouldn't hire someone for a job that said "sup dog" upon meeting you in an interview, why should the same bias indicate something nefarious for an LLM?
GloomyBoots 3y ago
If people speaking a certain dialect tend not to work in a particular role, an LLM is only being accurate in deprioritizing that occupation when guessing what they might do. It does make it not bias when an LLM is accurately representing reality.

aaron695 3y ago

I don't say cunt in a job interview. Obviously as a normal person I'll say that in normal life and in most work situations. So if a dumb cunt can't show they know what to do in a interview I'll judge them on that.

brvsft 3y ago

If most of my employees can’t understand the way someone speaks or writes, it’s likely that person will have problems communicating ideas within the organization. Also, by definition where? You’re just making this up, there isn’t an authoritative dictionary or even regulation that states judging fitness for a job based on the dialect of English a person speaks is “bias.” If there was, surely you would have provided a link instead of just asserting your own correctness.

leereeves 3y ago

The high prestige jobs the LLMs associated with SAE mostly require higher education, usually post-graduate. Perhaps the model is only accurately learning that more educated people use a particular dialect of English taught by universities. There's really no way to tell, because the researchers didn't include other dialects of English that aren't favored by universities, like southern, or Yorkshire.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

Alright, but I think their point is "bias as reflected in the real world." There's a bias against hiring people that don't speak English at all for English speaking jobs, I don't think anyone of sound mind would call that xenophobia. Critically what we are trying to find out with the LLMs is if there is bias beyond social acceptability or beyond job requirements. If you wouldn't hire someone for a job that said "sup dog" upon meeting you in an interview, why should the same bias indicate something nefarious for an LLM?

GloomyBoots 3y ago

If people speaking a certain dialect tend not to work in a particular role, an LLM is only being accurate in deprioritizing that occupation when guessing what they might do. It does make it not bias when an LLM is accurately representing reality.