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Tesla Berlin gigafactory goes dark after alleged eco-sabotage
- AnimalMuppet 3y agoWe're preventing electric cars to save the earth? I mean, yes, there is an (often unacknowledged) ecological footprint for producing electric cars. They don't just grow from magic trees planted by fairies. But are they net better for the environment, or worse? And if better, then, eco-sabotage people, which side are you on?
- sschueller 3y ago[flagged]
- leetharris 3y agoI hate hearing this argument. Nearly all electricity in the world is a blend of sources. Texas, a famously oil and gas state, has the highest amount of renewable energy in America. This is being worked on in parallel. If we wait until we have clean energy everywhere it'll take another 20-30 years to migrate vehicles away from gasoline. Lastly, a single massive oil/gas/coal/etc power plant is more efficient than millions of little generators.
- Gibbon1 3y agoYeah and the mix varies daily and seasonally. During the day in California maybe 60% renewable. At night probably 80% natural gas.
- unethical_ban 3y agoAssuming the charge capacity and transmission lines were in place: Which is easier? Converting 500,000 gasoline cars to solar/wind power, or migrating the power grid off coal/NG and into the expanding wind/solar sources?
- hef19898 3y agoThose are the exact same thing?
- unethical_ban 3y agoMy point is that all these people who ever say "driving EVs powered by a coal plant" completely miss the point that swapping to EV is part of the transition, not the final step.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bdcravens 3y agoEven ignoring renewables, internal combustion is way less efficient than electric motors, so it’s still a net win for EVs.
- ninininino 3y agoEdit: sounds like I'm probably just wrong and spreading misinfo here, nvm The irony here is that Germany's "green" party shut down all their nuclear powerplants and replaced them with natural gas from...drumroll...Russia, and can now only support their industry with lignite (cough, coal) which is horrible for the environment. There are strong arguments that the greens were manipulated by FSB, for so perfectly did they sabotage their own economy and industrial base as the new Russian imperalist period has evolved.
- hef19898 3y agoOh man, again? The Greens didn't shut down the NPPs, the CDU/CSU/FDP government under Merkel did after Fukishima, screwing over the previously well done plan from the SPD/Green government. And no, NPPs were not replaced with gas, Germany never really burned gas for electricity. They were replaced, over time since nobody shut them down over night, by a mix of renewables (mainly solar and wind) and coal (bad enough, but at a cobstabt decline regardless). Fun fact: It was the Greens that kept the German NPPs running way beyond the plqn, as long as safely possible with the available fuel, after Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
- ImJamal 3y agoThe SPD/Greens shut down the Stade Nuclear Power Plant in 2003 and the Obrigheim Nuclear Power Plant in 2005. As far as I know this was not "all" that the person you were responding to said, but they absolutely did shut down nuclear plants.
- hef19898 3y agoEverybody is shutting down plants all the time. Because guess what, those power plants have a service life, an economical and a technical one. When one is reached, the plant gets shut down. Whomever is at the helms of goverment doesn't matter, capitalism takes care of this. More important is who set whick policy. The SPD / Green goverment defined a pretty well thought out nuclear exit strategy, one the industry supported. And then the new CDU/CSU/FDP government nixed that policy, only to hastely introduce a a shitty versiom of the previous exit after Fukushima. Under which government a plant then get shut down isn't relevant. By the same logic, one could make the Greens the most pro-nuclear party there is, because a Green minister extended the life time of the German NPPs as much as possible. Because the Green absolutely did that, too.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- SilasX 3y agoJust like we spent 50+ years preventing nuclear energy rollout to save the earth (and/or prop up fossil fuel usage by total coincidence).
- panick21_ 3y agoEco greens have been opposing subways in Berlin as well. These people are insane.
- bdamm 3y ago> and called Tesla owner Elon Musk a "technofascist" whose "green capitalism" is "a totalitarian technological attack on society." This seems insane to me. Is there any justification for this whatsoever? It seems like unhinged, childish, extremist thinking. I always want to find the deeper meaning behind people's actions but here all I see is fear of the unknown. Even if one didn't agree with climate change, why is making cars a bad thing?
- ralfd 3y agoThey do agree with climate change, these radical leftists are just very very very very anti-capitalistic, and because of that big companies are evil and mining lithium is evil and cars are evil, and Tesla is uniquely evil and anti-union, and individual motorized mobility should be forbidden. Trains and buses should be the solution for low emission future. In fact it is more insane than the link reported. They claimed it as a „gift for international women day“ and the destruction of the Gigafactory would be a feminist win against „The Patriarchy“ (which is personified by capitalistic technofascist Daddy Elon.)
- Spivak 3y agoWell they're (presumably) not going after other electric car makers so I imagine the motivation has to be something somewhat unique about Tesla. I can kinda see the fascism angle with Musk at the center because yeah you have the cult of personality thing, grandiose promises of changing the world, super anti-socialist anti-liberal (meaning political liberalism), techbro libertarian, scapegoating minorities and "wokeness" as the source of societies ailments. I don't think I agree with the analysis but it kinda fits if you squint so I see how they got there. Green capitalism I assume they just mean as a synonym for greenwashing which I get but also Tesla isn't particularly egregious compared to other auto manufacturers. And "a totalitarian technological attack" I can only assume is the fact that Tesla is the poster child for a car manufacturer retaining an iron grip on their product even after it's sold plus the 360 always on networked cameras. It's like the far-right conspiracy about "15 minute cities" but they arrived there taking the left path where it's capitalist shadow government controlling the movements of people instead of government. Edit: From the sibling comments I can't figure out patriarchy. Elmo is publicly pretty anti-feminist and hurting his wallet hurts his political influence maybeee?
- RetroTechie 3y ago'Manifesto' linked from The Register article: (German language) https://kontrapolis.info/12465/ https://kontrapolis.info/12465/ Oh my.. "GigaFactory rapes the Earth, employs slave workers, Tesla's are surveillance tanks on wheels, Elon Musk is $&#^!" etc etc. I suppose these people have a better plan to avoid climate catastrophe, one that doesn't involve lithium mining, huge battery/EV factories etc, and is somewhat compatible with most other people's livelyhoods? A better plan that can be deployed at scale, yesterday? Because if not, Tesla's GigaFactories are among the best options in our toolbox. (not to mention: this one built with support from democratic elected government).
- rebolek 3y agoThey're so evil, that they're probably paid by Exxon based on their actions.
- lm28469 3y agoBelieve it or not but some people believe infinite growth in a closed system isn't sustainable, even if you slap a "green revolution" sticker on it
- throwway120385 3y agoAnd don't get me started on how all new technology is inevitably used to force us all to live our lives with more intensity.
- timdaub 3y agoThis framing is a concession to people who are terrorists. Many people who are optimistically working towards a better future (and here I mean broadly almost anyone) are not arguing for "infinite growth in closed systems." Everyone is and has been trying to optimize things as well as it is in their capability to improve the situation.
- RockCoach 3y agoI'm not sure about the "eco-sabotage" angle. In the past, the same group that claims responsibility for this attack, conducted arson attacks on the public transport infrastructure accusing the train company of collaborating with the military-industrial complex or some similar farfetched excuse. It seems to me like they just like to start fires and destroy things to cause chaos (under the pretense that there is a political justification for it).
- Log_out_ 3y agoOh, that's just Russian sleeper cell sabotage, that's nothing personal. Don't mention it
- kkfx 3y agoBeside formal responsibility claims I've noted few recent curious sabotages in EU: - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-08/trains-in-northern-germany-halted-for-hours-after-cables-cut https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-08/trains-in... - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-05/tests-show-sweden-poland-power-cable-intact-after-pipeline-blast https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-05/tests-sho... - https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/technology/internet-connectivity-worldwide-impacted-by-severed-fiber-cables-in-france/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/technology/internet-co... They have in common being energy and tlc networks, unclear reasons for the sabotage and unclear actors.
- iamawacko 3y agoThere's a VW factory making gas vehicles pretty close to Berlin. I sorta understand where they're coming from (Tesla emits ~33 million tons of CO2 equivalent per year, and is significantly less efficient than bikes, public transport, or even some motorized vehicles), but this adventurism is at best having little impact, and they didn't really choose their target well.
- panick21_ 3y agoThe Berlin eco-leftist all beliefe in nonsense conspiricy nonsense and are very anti-US.
- nemo44x 3y agoThere's a lot of leftist disruption going on out there but it seems like the politicians only complain of a nonexistent "far right" bogeymen. Seems like endless destruction and defacement of private and public property and rioting, infrastructure sabotage, and disruption to free travel. And all of it justified through a delusional idea of justice or something.
- ben_w 3y ago> complain of a nonexistent "far right" bogeymen And there I was thinking they were complaining about things like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Potsdam_far-right_meeting Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Halemba#Investigation_and_arrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Halemba#Investigation_a...
- nemo44x 3y agoThat's just speech. There were no actions. Getting together to talk about political action if they were to get democratically elected is a lot different than blowing things up, interfering with travel, and destroying actual property, etc.
- lnxg33k1 3y agoId like to know who is this genius who invented the concept of non binding referendum, like lets spend some public money to have an election, but if we don’t like the results then let’s do like nothing happened, if a referendum was not enough to let those in charge understand that the population was against this expansion, then sabotage is the only viable option, regardless of politicians trying to let them pass for some anarchists Because democracy needs to be accounted for, despite the political servants of capital
- ben_w 3y agoBrexit was a theoretically non-binding referendum, the politicians proceeded with it for much the reasons you give — but it turned out that even amongst the MPs, a majority opposed each and every specific and detailed form that they could suggest for what it might look like in practice, including both "cancelling it" and "ask the people in another referendum": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_votes_on_Brexit#First_Round_of_Indicative_Votes_(27_March_2019) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_votes_on_Brexit#... That kind of deadlock is a good reason for them to be non-binding. In this case Westminster "solved" it by replacing the Prime Minister with a pathological liar who convinced enough people that everything was good for long enough to get something done before his lies finally caught up with him, which isn't really good governance.
- lnxg33k1 3y agoThat was just inexperience with referendums from UK politics, if I remember correctly it was their first one in their history, right? The referendum was very generic, while in this case it was very specific, do you want the gigafactory to extend at the cost of the forest? Also in Italy when we do referendums they have multiple questions that divide the bigger issue in smaller problems, so that overall you can build the solution quite "representatively" What the Brexit referendum should have been is what was voted on parliamentary votes afterwards on how to implement it
- ben_w 3y ago> if I remember correctly it was their first one in their history, right? Third in my lifetime, I also saw the Scottish independence referendum and the "should we replace FPTP voting with something else?" referendum. There was also a referendum about the predecessor to the EU, a bit before my time.
- yongjik 3y agoEvery time I hear this kind of news, I'm reminded of a Reddit comment thread: > > So what are they protesting? > Lack of attention