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Nerdy internals of an Apple text editor
- indemnity 3y agoWhat a great article (and personally timely, wrangling NSTextViews at the moment). How did you glean the information needed to write this? Other people’s code? Painful experience? developer.apple.com?
- papereditor 3y agoThanks! I've been working on Paper for 9 years. I've had a lot of time to study how everything works. :D
- papereditor 3y agoDiscussion for the first article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38866170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38866170
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- soapdog 3y agoI love articles like this.
- papereditor 3y agoThanks!
- whartung 3y agoI'd like to see a similar treatise on the Apple Document system. I love that thing, it's a favorite part of all the Apple apps.
- jitl 3y agoThat makes me super curious about it. I've only had some small interaction while learning SwiftUI and I was confused in passing, and sort of just smashed things until it worked.
- kccqzy 3y agoAre the internals of other Mac-native text editors like TextMate similar to this as well?
- pvg 3y agoThat depends on the extent on which they rely on the system-provided frameworks. When the needs of the editor get specialized enough, all sorts of hackery happens.
- ladberg 3y agoA quick glance at https://github.com/textmate/textmate https://github.com/textmate/textmate says they don't but someone correct me if I'm wrong
- Someone 3y agoDepends on what you call “similar”. They’ll have storage, layout, a part of the layout that’s visible, etc, but they may not separate them that clearly, and won’t have that rich an API. TextView is way more flexible than what the typical _text_ editor needs. Text editors typically don’t need multiple fonts, multiple font sizes, varying line spacing, paragraph indents, proportional fonts, right-aligning or decimal tabs, images inside text, etc. All those features make TextView relatively slow and memory hungry. Because of that, I don’t think _text_ editors that handle multi-megabyte files will use a single NSAttributedString to store the entire document’s text.
- papereditor 3y agoYep. TextView is a beast. For multi-megabyte files I always use Sublime.
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- dbalatero 3y agoThe author did a great job using images to convey the various concerns each piece of code in the API is responsible for. Also super great detail in the writing. Nice work! This feels like a technical-first article that also happens to generate goodwill for the product, as opposed to a marketing-first technical article that serves up the bare minimum of insights.
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- papereditor 3y agoThanks! Yep, it's a win-win. A good resource plus a bit of marketing for the product.
- Nijikokun 3y agoI clicked "hide these widgets" from the three dot dropdown menu on your animations and now I can't figure out how to bring them back. heh. Great post btw!
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- papereditor 3y agoThanks! The state is saved to local storage. Just delete the key from DevTools and they will come back. :D
- foxandmouse 3y agoI've been loving this app, It's replaced all other markdown apps for me including obsidian and ia Writer!
- mk12 3y agoInteresting, those are the two main apps I use for writing. Maybe I should check this out.
- caycep 3y agogranted, I know Paper is an apt name, but there's at least 2 other iOS apps called "Paper" IIRc...
- papereditor 3y agoYep… "paper writing app" is a good keyword to search by.
- sharkjacobs 3y agoThis is great, I think it supplants https://www.objc.io/issues/5-ios7/getting-to-know-textkit/ https://www.objc.io/issues/5-ios7/getting-to-know-textkit/ as my go to introduction to TextKit.
- papereditor 3y agoThat looks like a good article, indeed. I have not seen it before. Thanks!
- Someone 3y agoFor iOS 15.0 or later/MacOS Monterey or later, you want to look at TextKit 2. See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/appkit/textkit/using_textkit_2_to_interact_with_text https://developer.apple.com/documentation/appkit/textkit/usi... That’s a new layout engine that currently is the default for text fields and on iOS and MacOS, but likely will be the only option some time in the future.
- papereditor 3y agoIndeed! I want to migrate Paper to it this or next year.
- yuchi 3y agoIn the era of DOM documents (see notion, gitbook) I very often resort to attributed strings to do magic stuff with text parsing and manipulation. It’s such an elegant structure and I don’t understand why is so unknown. Incredible article btw
- papereditor 3y agoThank you!
- LikeAnElephant 3y agoDo you have an example? I’d love to learn more!
- yuchi 3y agoLet’s say you have a rich text where you want to highlight all occurrences of some token or syntax. When you have tree data structures you cannot use regexps or a simple parsers, since the full text may be split in different nodes. With attributes strings it’s trivial, you just need to move attributes accordingly and to normalize stuff at the end.
- Ezhik 3y agoI wonder if there are any web rich text editor components that use attributed strings? Tired of the DOM.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoIt's a real shame that Apple doesn't release the source to a recent version of TextEdit. Given its structure (more or less just a stock objects from the API) it would be super educational for anyone who wants to use NSTextView et al.
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- krzyzanowskim 3y agoFor the educational purpose of modern TextKit and NSTextView-like implementation, you can check out https://github.com/krzyzanowskim/STTextView https://github.com/krzyzanowskim/STTextView that is modern re-implementation of the text view.
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- jwells89 3y agoYeah, you can get pretty close to TextEdit by just dropping an NSTextView into the document window XIB of a document-based Mac app, hooking up the data methods in your Document class to it, and doing a little bit of wiring of menu items to the textview. Text formatting bar, rulers, Find in Page, font panel, etc. There’s a few things missing but not a ton. The document-based app template gets you a lot for “free” too, including tabs and conversion of windows into tabs and vice versa.
- jrvarela56 3y agoThis is amazing content marketing. Developers are an obvious target niche for such a product. Exposing internals of the software in a way HNers enjoy sounds like a great idea, would love to see if it worked as a traction experiment.
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- papereditor 3y agoLast time (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38866170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38866170) there was a small spike in sales, but no lasting effect. I would not say that developers are the target niche. The best customers are professional writers who use a ton of writing apps for different occasions.
- glorioushubris 3y agoProfessional writer who uses different writing apps for different occasions is me exactly. I’m also the (or at least a) guy who messaged you about inline comments. As soon as all the details of that feature are implemented, I’m buying it.
- papereditor 3y agoNice! I'll be sure to prioritize this work then. :D
- papereditor 3y agoDone! Comments are now hidden in the Preview Mode. I've also added the comment block feature (%%) like in Ulysses: https://help.ulysses.app/en_US/guides/comments-notes-annotations https://help.ulysses.app/en_US/guides/comments-notes-annotat... Shortcuts: - Comment: Command+T - Comment Block: Shift+Command+T Adjusting the preferred comment syntax: - Mac: Go to the Format menu, hold the Option key, then under More Formatting below Comment you can pick either ++ or /**/ - iOS: Go to the Settings app, then under Paper > Markdown pick either ++ or /**/
- brcmthrowaway 3y agoIs openGl used here at all for rendering?
- papereditor 3y agoI don't use any low-level rendering code.
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- jakey_bakey 3y agoThe UI of this doc is absolutely beautiful
- troupo 3y agoThere are several elements that are practically invisible though: play/pause buttons on the sides, comments in parentheses, explanatory text on graphics. It's a shame because otherwise the presentation is really good.
- papereditor 3y agoThanks! The play/pause buttons are meant to not disturb the reading. They are only for the rare occasions when you want to pause the video to examine it closer. Comments can be hovered over to make them fully visible. The text, yes, should have been more prominent…
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- Eggs-n-Jakey 3y agoI like your handle, Jake.
- papereditor 3y agoThanks!
- lilyball 3y agoI'm a little confused at the part about decorative attributes being done outside of the editing transaction, saying "And they are not even aware of the transaction since they live in the NSLayoutManager itself, not in NSTextStorage". Decorative attributes like color do normally live in the NSTextStorage! Is the author implying that the colors applied to markdown characters are being done with NSLayoutManager's temporary attributes support (typically used to color misspelled words)? What would be the purpose of that?
- papereditor 3y agoYes. NSTextStorage can also contain the same attributes as the temporary attributes (rendering attributes in TextKit 2). The benefit of using temporary attributes is that changing them is very fast compared to invoking the full transaction on NSTextStorage. For example, switching between Light/Dark modes is very fast in Paper.
- lilyball 3y agoI would have expected a transaction to track whether any changes affect layout and avoid invalidating layout if only changing rendering attributes. I assume you've actually measured this though, and so I have to infer that this optimization does not in fact happen.
- papereditor 3y agoThings might have changed already, but yes, when I measured it there was a noticeable difference. Ideally, I would have expected it to behave like you have described.
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- CaesarA 3y agoAs someone who has attempted to write their own text editor completely from scratch before, this would've been a tremendous resource to have.
- papereditor 3y agoThank you!
- anonymouse008 3y agoHaha! Love this so much. Did you ever have to store custom metadata in NSAS to file? Before chatGPT, I had to write NSSecureCoding classes by hand, and that agony will remain in my soul next incarnation.
- papereditor 3y agoThanks! I am offloading all the storage to NSDocument, so I don't have to deal with stuff like this. :)
- personjerry 3y agoI wish there was documentation like this for more ios components!
- papereditor 3y agoThanks!
- justinzollars 3y agoAwesome description! Thank you!
- papereditor 3y agoThanks!
- xenodium 3y agoAnyone know of a similarly well crafted app for Android?
- papereditor 3y agoiA Writer (https://ia.net/writer https://ia.net/writer) is on Android as well.
- xenodium 3y agoThank you!
- russellbeattie 3y agoImagine going through all that effort, and then saving the output in Markdown. It's like finishing your astrophysics PhD and then getting a lobotomy. Just to repeat my years-long crusade of yelling at clouds, we need a cross platform, Rich Text HTML Document standard.
- jitl 3y agoIsn't that "just" HTML? What should be added to HTML?
- russellbeattie 3y agoSorry, a little late with my reply. It's mostly about removing stuff from HTML - JavaScript, forms, and various CSS features - to make it focus on simple formatting. Then requiring the appropriate CSP security constraints to ensure privacy/security. Finally, standardizing on a way to include binary files (images, etc.) in the format using a JSON blob at the end of the text which can be referenced above. Self contained, document focused, cross platform, secure and private, while still being standard HTML. Would replace ePub, .docx, Markdown, and provide a standard file format for Google Docs to export to.
- userbinator 3y agoThe TextEdit app consists almost entirely of a single TextView I believe WordPad is the Windows equivalent, based on the RichEdit control. Another fun fact is that RTF is basically the serialized form of NSAttributedString. The same is true of Windows' RichEdit control. In fact, it looks like Windows' implementation came first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Text_Format https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Text_Format
- papereditor 3y agoInteresting facts!
- kaichanvong 3y agocasual opinion; To the App developer (Mihhail L/@_mihhail?) themselves, to say: Loved just how it keeps itself, everything-from-the emoji of engineering, engi-peeping, mechanical heading–towards focus on screen/container mixed with data storage. Never certain how it keeps for scrolling; the issue lies in drag, doomscrolls, scrollbar versus tap-for-scrolling… now, on topic of moving on: “a good OS citizen, you should provide many formats”, not keen on everything/too-many Media Formats keeping it sweet, simple; some of these Apps can become almost utility goto. Some of my favourites, include emoji meets paste formatting issues in export. How do they render correctly the almost, "interstitial flickering" change. My expectations paused at Themes/Theming (not really happening? different looks) no simple mention of light Vs. dark; willow filter adjustment tones? Okay! Still, amazement. I believe, we choose our (kind of) Paper whenever possible. …Thanks! All the kindest of regards, from reading nerdy happenings! Kai V (@kaichanvong)
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- grishka 3y agoFor me, as a long-time Android app developer, it was interesting to see how Apple approaches things somewhat differently and more thoughtfully. On Android, you basically have the Layout class (and its subclasses) that does everything related to both layout and rendering, and TextView which implements some of the editing/selection logic. The only difference between EditText and TextView is that EditText enables that editing functionality already present in TextView. The problem with this rather monolithic approach (and poor APIs) is that if you need more control over how your app renders text, you're out of luck. Want to get at the individual glyphs after they've been laid out for example? Nope, sorry.
- Ezhik 3y agoOh thank god at least somebody is doing Cocoa in 2024.