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I quite like the article as far as it goes; but this begs the follow up question - is the strategy working? Because for all their standards and harmonisation, t

by roenxi 3y ago

I quite like the article as far as it goes; but this begs the follow up question - is the strategy working? Because for all their standards and harmonisation, the manufacturing is happening in China and the decisions are being made in North America. This should be an article about how Nokia or equivalent is approaching the US all wrong and not understanding the realities on the ground. I'd put energy in a similar frame. Energy matters a lot, and for all the optimistic noise around the Energiewende, the solar industry ended up in China. Wind power Europe has managed a company in the top ten, so that is pretty good [0]. Given the growing energy crisis in Europe, this seems to be an area of failure that needs more focus in how the common market is performing. The EU's successes seem a bit mild. I remain sceptical that harmonizing charging cables is an important enough dot point to appear on these lists, it looks like there is just a lack of success stories out of the EU. The failures are catastrophic; last I heard the farmers had just started rioting too [1] which is a bad omen. [0] https://www.zippia.com/advice/largest-wind-power-companies/ https://www.zippia.com/advice/largest-wind-power-companies/ [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/feb/26/farmers-protests-brussels-eu-agriculture-leaders-riot-police https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/feb/26/farmers-...

nonethewiser 3y ago
> Because for all their standards and harmonisation, the manufacturing is happening in China and the decisions are being made in North America. Seems like this holds true more generally. The manufacturing is happening in China, the decisions are being made in North America, and the regulation in the EU. Its like direct (US), produce (China), react (EU)
- 2devnull 3y ago
  China can regulate more effectively than the EU. They have actual concentration camps. Look at Jack Ma. The EU has cookie banners. That’s not regulation, it’s a speed bump. Consider that the US cannot manufacture things because our environmental and labor regulations are so strict as to make it impossible. The idea that America doesn’t have regulations is not accurate. We have regulated the regulation, so it appears less regulatory but it is not.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Are you actually callong for forced labor camps for certain people???
    - 2devnull 3y ago
      I’m saying the notion that China doesn’t regulate is ridiculous. If it is true that America leads rather than produces, it is precisely because it has embraced regulation to protect workers and groundwater.
matthewdgreen 3y ago
The goal of Energiewende was to crush the price of renewable generation, and it looks like that’s happened. It just turns out that the fastest way to accomplish this was for manufacturing to occur in China, where it’s consistently cheaper year after year. If you set up an optimization problem on one metric, you can’t be surprised when it doesn’t optimize for a different one.
another-dave 3y ago
> but this begs the follow up question - is the strategy working? Because for all their standards and harmonisation, the manufacturing is happening in China and the decisions are being made in North America. But at least some of the decisions that happen in North America are happening because of EU regulation. For example the push to get all phone manufacturers to standardise on USB chargers
rkangel 3y ago
It's working for the people that live in the EU. This is another point that I think Americans miss sometimes - "good for the businesses" is seen as the end goal, and it is assumed that people will benefit in some trickle-down way from that. The goal for all of this is for people to have good lives. Supporting businesses may or may not be the right way of doing that, but we shouldn't lose sight of the end goal.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Simping for big business is a favorite American pastime. Somehow, so many Americans have been convinced that they're actually business owners, just having a set-back and temporarily working for $20/hr stocking shelves or selling cars. But in their hearts they are actually tycoons, and anything that hurts business surely hurts themselves!
  - rkangel 3y ago
    Quote from the West Wing: "That is the problem with the American Dream. Makes everyone concerned for the day they're gonna be rich."
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      I used to trot this URL[1] out a lot, but it's a pretty old survey now. In 2003, 39% of Americans believed that they either were(19%) or one day would be(20%) among the top 1% of earners. 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hope-over-self-interest.html https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-ho...
      - roenxi 3y ago
        They might not be that wrong Article is paywalled, but I'd expect that a double digit % US citizens are in the top 1% globally. They're pretty wealthy. 1% is like 80 million people. That could translate to around 10% of the US. And the names of those 10% change as people earn more or less through their lives.
FredFS456 3y ago
Two companies in the wind power top 10: Siemens of Germany, and Vestas of Denmark. As someone who worked for a while in Canadian wind power industry, the only other turbines I've seen deployed at scale here are the GE ones.
shaky-carrousel 3y ago
If the decisions were being made in North America, iPhones would still be having a lightning connector.
Isinlor 3y ago
On the basic premise EU is working wonderfully. It's the longest period in our thousand years history that we Poles have not had to fight Germans. We have lost maybe even 1/3 of population in wars with Sweden, 1/5 of population in war with Germany. Poland didn't exist or 123 years under Russian, Prussian and Austrian occupation. Given that as a baseline, I'm really grateful for the EU.
- roenxi 3y ago
  Maybe I'm about to display my ignorance, but until 1990 wasn't Poland under the USSR's umbrella? And the US was all but occupying Germany until ... it is almost possible to make that claim up to today. There are 50k US troops in Germany and 60k in the German army. That and the Southwestern Europeans being broken like twigs after WWII. I don't think it is the EU that is keeping the peace; I reakoon it is the Haber process + the US more than anything else. Although if it was it is failing IMO, there is a land war in Europe right now that is at risk of fighting WWIII. And everyone is arming up again because of it.
  - mycatislenin 3y ago
    Indeed. You're displaying your ignorance.
  - Sammi 3y ago
    The Haber process was the single most important thing that brought us WW1 and WW2. War at an industrial scale was suddenly possible because munitions were possible to produce at and industrial scale. The EU is what changed in Europe. US "occupation" in Europe after WW2 was weak compared to the influence of the EU. The EU emanates all regulation in Europe. The US certainly didn't create the single market in the EU. Also the brutal occupation of Easter Europe by the USSR is exactly an example of what the EU peace project is about solving.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      If someone was going to start a fight in Europe after WWII, they had a choice of either attacking in the East and going toe-to-toe with the USSR, or the West and going toe-to-toe with the US. That calculation held for the Germans, British and French too if they wanted to start something. The common market has probably been a net force for peace, but superpowers staking out areas where they were involved can hardly be brushed aside. After the fall of the USSR it hasn't been 30 years and we see land wars in their former sphere of influence. Economics doesn't stop armies. We saw in WWII that insane politicians are perfectly capable of destroying everything in sight, economic consequences for their own citizens be damned.
pelorat 3y ago
If we had comparable energy prices to the USA then we would also have more manufacturing. It's almost the sole driver behind the current economic crisis. Europe is sadly not energy independent like the USA is. It's not economically feasible to operate a large factory in central europe any more, it's barely possible to operate a restaurant (they are closing in droves) -- energy prices are too high.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  That's the promise of the renewable transition, it's the trifecta: - energy independence - lower energy prices (after the short term) - addresses global warming With a huge bonus: - crushes the evil and collusive petro states
perlgeek 3y ago
As someone living in the EU, I'm well aware of the EU's failings, but also of the successes, and I think we don't celebrate them enough. Some things I really like: * I can travel in a wide area with just my ID card (and practically even without it), no visa or passports required * sending packages by mail is really easy and cheap compared to non-EU countries * free mobile data roaming. Not such a big deal for me (but very convenient), but I have friends that travel a lot or are at home in more than one country, for them it's huge * no need to exchange currencies when visiting lots of places (though not all EU countries) * my health insurance mostly works in the other EU countries as well * pretty strong consumer protection laws * We've been living in peace for quite a few decades now, awesome! (And that's not how it used to be in central Europe, historically) Note that national politicians often take credit for things mandated by EU, and put all the blame on the EU, so that kinda skews the public discords more negative than it should be. Just one more data point: only one country has left the EU so far, and it seems they've come to regret it, mostly. Lots of countries have joined the EU since its formation, with more in the pipeline. Would that be the case if negatives outweighed the positives?
- roenxi 3y ago
  I find it ironic that at the time of writing the comment before yours is the one that complains about "simping for big business" (ie, overfocusing on the benifits to the wealthy) and then your comment is mainly lauding the benefits to the people who can afford international travel. Community discussions are odd beasts.
  - deanishe 3y ago
    > the people who can afford international travel. Who can't afford to travel 100km? Maybe for you, international travel means hopping on a plane. Most Europeans live closer to another country than to most of their own.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      Turns out to be a surprisingly hard question to answer; so I'm going with such people will exist but I'm not sure how many there are. But regardless, that is a list of things that are either mainly to be enjoyed by people who are well off or (ironically and opposite) part of a program of enabling cheap labourers to migrate large distances. And I'm not against either of those things, both are good. But it is funny how one comment is complaining about doing things that are good for business and the wealthy, then the next comment was celebrating the same.
p_l 3y ago
A lot of manufacturing actually does happen in EU - it's just somehow concentrated in manufacturing parts necessary to make factories in general or producing other things. So less in big name end user products, a lot in terms of "drive around EU and you can purchase everything to build any kind of factory"

by roenxi 3y ago

nonethewiser 3y ago

> Because for all their standards and harmonisation, the manufacturing is happening in China and the decisions are being made in North America. Seems like this holds true more generally. The manufacturing is happening in China, the decisions are being made in North America, and the regulation in the EU. Its like direct (US), produce (China), react (EU)

2devnull 3y ago
China can regulate more effectively than the EU. They have actual concentration camps. Look at Jack Ma. The EU has cookie banners. That’s not regulation, it’s a speed bump. Consider that the US cannot manufacture things because our environmental and labor regulations are so strict as to make it impossible. The idea that America doesn’t have regulations is not accurate. We have regulated the regulation, so it appears less regulatory but it is not.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Are you actually callong for forced labor camps for certain people???
  - 2devnull 3y ago
    I’m saying the notion that China doesn’t regulate is ridiculous. If it is true that America leads rather than produces, it is precisely because it has embraced regulation to protect workers and groundwater.

matthewdgreen 3y ago

The goal of Energiewende was to crush the price of renewable generation, and it looks like that’s happened. It just turns out that the fastest way to accomplish this was for manufacturing to occur in China, where it’s consistently cheaper year after year. If you set up an optimization problem on one metric, you can’t be surprised when it doesn’t optimize for a different one.

another-dave 3y ago

> but this begs the follow up question - is the strategy working? Because for all their standards and harmonisation, the manufacturing is happening in China and the decisions are being made in North America. But at least some of the decisions that happen in North America are happening because of EU regulation. For example the push to get all phone manufacturers to standardise on USB chargers

rkangel 3y ago

It's working for the people that live in the EU. This is another point that I think Americans miss sometimes - "good for the businesses" is seen as the end goal, and it is assumed that people will benefit in some trickle-down way from that. The goal for all of this is for people to have good lives. Supporting businesses may or may not be the right way of doing that, but we shouldn't lose sight of the end goal.

ryandrake 3y ago
Simping for big business is a favorite American pastime. Somehow, so many Americans have been convinced that they're actually business owners, just having a set-back and temporarily working for $20/hr stocking shelves or selling cars. But in their hearts they are actually tycoons, and anything that hurts business surely hurts themselves!
- rkangel 3y ago
  Quote from the West Wing: "That is the problem with the American Dream. Makes everyone concerned for the day they're gonna be rich."
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    I used to trot this URL[1] out a lot, but it's a pretty old survey now. In 2003, 39% of Americans believed that they either were(19%) or one day would be(20%) among the top 1% of earners. 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hope-over-self-interest.html https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-ho...
    - roenxi 3y ago
      They might not be that wrong Article is paywalled, but I'd expect that a double digit % US citizens are in the top 1% globally. They're pretty wealthy. 1% is like 80 million people. That could translate to around 10% of the US. And the names of those 10% change as people earn more or less through their lives.

FredFS456 3y ago

Two companies in the wind power top 10: Siemens of Germany, and Vestas of Denmark. As someone who worked for a while in Canadian wind power industry, the only other turbines I've seen deployed at scale here are the GE ones.

shaky-carrousel 3y ago

If the decisions were being made in North America, iPhones would still be having a lightning connector.

Isinlor 3y ago

On the basic premise EU is working wonderfully. It's the longest period in our thousand years history that we Poles have not had to fight Germans. We have lost maybe even 1/3 of population in wars with Sweden, 1/5 of population in war with Germany. Poland didn't exist or 123 years under Russian, Prussian and Austrian occupation. Given that as a baseline, I'm really grateful for the EU.

roenxi 3y ago
Maybe I'm about to display my ignorance, but until 1990 wasn't Poland under the USSR's umbrella? And the US was all but occupying Germany until ... it is almost possible to make that claim up to today. There are 50k US troops in Germany and 60k in the German army. That and the Southwestern Europeans being broken like twigs after WWII. I don't think it is the EU that is keeping the peace; I reakoon it is the Haber process + the US more than anything else. Although if it was it is failing IMO, there is a land war in Europe right now that is at risk of fighting WWIII. And everyone is arming up again because of it.
- mycatislenin 3y ago
  Indeed. You're displaying your ignorance.
- Sammi 3y ago
  The Haber process was the single most important thing that brought us WW1 and WW2. War at an industrial scale was suddenly possible because munitions were possible to produce at and industrial scale. The EU is what changed in Europe. US "occupation" in Europe after WW2 was weak compared to the influence of the EU. The EU emanates all regulation in Europe. The US certainly didn't create the single market in the EU. Also the brutal occupation of Easter Europe by the USSR is exactly an example of what the EU peace project is about solving.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    If someone was going to start a fight in Europe after WWII, they had a choice of either attacking in the East and going toe-to-toe with the USSR, or the West and going toe-to-toe with the US. That calculation held for the Germans, British and French too if they wanted to start something. The common market has probably been a net force for peace, but superpowers staking out areas where they were involved can hardly be brushed aside. After the fall of the USSR it hasn't been 30 years and we see land wars in their former sphere of influence. Economics doesn't stop armies. We saw in WWII that insane politicians are perfectly capable of destroying everything in sight, economic consequences for their own citizens be damned.

pelorat 3y ago

If we had comparable energy prices to the USA then we would also have more manufacturing. It's almost the sole driver behind the current economic crisis. Europe is sadly not energy independent like the USA is. It's not economically feasible to operate a large factory in central europe any more, it's barely possible to operate a restaurant (they are closing in droves) -- energy prices are too high.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
That's the promise of the renewable transition, it's the trifecta: - energy independence - lower energy prices (after the short term) - addresses global warming With a huge bonus: - crushes the evil and collusive petro states

perlgeek 3y ago

As someone living in the EU, I'm well aware of the EU's failings, but also of the successes, and I think we don't celebrate them enough. Some things I really like: * I can travel in a wide area with just my ID card (and practically even without it), no visa or passports required * sending packages by mail is really easy and cheap compared to non-EU countries * free mobile data roaming. Not such a big deal for me (but very convenient), but I have friends that travel a lot or are at home in more than one country, for them it's huge * no need to exchange currencies when visiting lots of places (though not all EU countries) * my health insurance mostly works in the other EU countries as well * pretty strong consumer protection laws * We've been living in peace for quite a few decades now, awesome! (And that's not how it used to be in central Europe, historically) Note that national politicians often take credit for things mandated by EU, and put all the blame on the EU, so that kinda skews the public discords more negative than it should be. Just one more data point: only one country has left the EU so far, and it seems they've come to regret it, mostly. Lots of countries have joined the EU since its formation, with more in the pipeline. Would that be the case if negatives outweighed the positives?

roenxi 3y ago
I find it ironic that at the time of writing the comment before yours is the one that complains about "simping for big business" (ie, overfocusing on the benifits to the wealthy) and then your comment is mainly lauding the benefits to the people who can afford international travel. Community discussions are odd beasts.
- deanishe 3y ago
  > the people who can afford international travel. Who can't afford to travel 100km? Maybe for you, international travel means hopping on a plane. Most Europeans live closer to another country than to most of their own.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    Turns out to be a surprisingly hard question to answer; so I'm going with such people will exist but I'm not sure how many there are. But regardless, that is a list of things that are either mainly to be enjoyed by people who are well off or (ironically and opposite) part of a program of enabling cheap labourers to migrate large distances. And I'm not against either of those things, both are good. But it is funny how one comment is complaining about doing things that are good for business and the wealthy, then the next comment was celebrating the same.

p_l 3y ago

A lot of manufacturing actually does happen in EU - it's just somehow concentrated in manufacturing parts necessary to make factories in general or producing other things. So less in big name end user products, a lot in terms of "drive around EU and you can purchase everything to build any kind of factory"