4 ms·

How do I listen to it? Just seems like a mishmash of sounds.. I don't see the genius.

heleninboodler 3y ago
This is a fascinating comment to me. I understand not really feeling jazz, but it doesn't even sound like a song to you? My only suggestion is to jump into the middle of a few songs and try to hear the rhythm and song structure. They can often be difficult to pick up when they start slow. All Blues might be the easiest. I sincerely wish you luck, because it's really incredible music.
- pie420 3y ago
  it's most likely someone baiting reactions on the internet by posting rage-bait disguised as naivety
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 3y ago
    Ha, jokes on them! They're getting excellent and smart replies.
  - heleninboodler 3y ago
    You mean just for fun? I'm having a hard time imagining real value in doing something like karma-farming on HN. Not to mention, that would be more like anti-karma-farming.
squidsoup 3y ago
Walk through New York City. You will hear a "mishmash of sounds", and perhaps begin to understand.
- khazhoux 3y ago
  And make sure to wear a fedora and a sharp suit, tip the newsboy, and give a warm “heya fellas!” to the navy boys taking in Times Square.
code_runner 3y ago
Make sure you’re listening to kind of blue. Not any of the extended deluxe this and that. Just the original tracks. All the extra stuff is great, but the original is the perfect album. What music do you typically like? There will definitely be a gateway to jazz in there somewhere.
damontal 3y ago
If you listen to that kind of jazz long enough you start hearing things. Patterns. References to other songs or standards in a solo. Two players interacting and having a kind of conversation with each other. I’ve listened to this album so many times I can play it in my mind. If you’re really interested then listen to it enough so that it becomes somewhat familiar. You’ll be able to distinguish the structure from the improv and hear the interaction between the two. Bill Evans was a classical pianist. Maybe just focus on the piano and try to see what it’s doing in the song. My Favorite Things by John Coltrane may be a better place to start though. It really emphasizes a familiar melody.
- WalterSear 3y ago
  > If you listen to that kind of jazz long enough you start hearing things. When someone asks me for an introduction to jazz, I point them at Kind of Blue. I'm not sure what the grandparent comment is looking for.
  - nicooo 3y ago
    Niels Ln Doky's TED talk [0] helped me understand and appreciate Jazz. [0] https://youtu.be/3ee-XROfON0 https://youtu.be/3ee-XROfON0
freejazz 3y ago
[flagged]
- Biganon 3y ago
  See, this is why I hate jazz fans. Yes, there are many people out there who love music but don't appreciate jazz. That's okay.
  - freejazz 3y ago
    I know it's okay. That's why I asked if there is music that the poster recognizes as music. The poster didn't describe it as music that they didn't like, they described it as a "mishmash" of sounds. Kind of Blue isn't even particularly "mashy". You're a bit obnoxious yourself.
    - Biganon 3y ago
      And the poster began by asking for advice on how to appreciate it. It's obvious that the mishmash criticism is subjective, limited to them, and they're trying to understand better. Many people, including myself and (apparently) the poster, don't understand jazz, at least not this kind of jazz. There are jazz artists that move me (you'd probably consider them of lesser quality or "easy listening"), but I've never understood what's so amazing about Miles Davis. And it seems like every time we ask for directions, we get the same incredibly obnoxious answers, that range from "oh my God do you even have ears" to "if you need it explained, you'll never get it". Maybe I'll never get it, maybe there's a bit of pretentiousness in the fandom, maybe a bit of both, who knows.
      - freejazz 3y ago
        > And the poster began by asking for advice on how to appreciate it. It's obvious that the mishmash criticism is subjective, limited to them, and they're trying to understand better. That's not obvious at all, and you remain obnoxious. Huge leap to go to from "understanding jazz" to "is this even music?" as the other poster pointed out. >There are jazz artists that move me (you'd probably consider them of lesser quality or "easy listening") Lol. I see, you've got a chip on your shoulder, and you are taking it out on me. > And it seems like every time we ask for directions, we get the same incredibly obnoxious answers, that range from "oh my God do you even have ears" to "if you need it explained, you'll never get it" It wasn't asking for "how to listen to it" that elicited the response the poster received, as was expressed to you numerous times. >Maybe I'll never get it, maybe there's a bit of pretentiousness in the fandom, maybe a bit of both, who knows. Once again there's a huge difference between "getting" something and recognizing that there is melody. > but I've never understood what's so amazing about Miles Davis Well, he has a gigantic body of music and is considered one of the most important figures in Jazz because the drive and diversity of his music has pushed the genre forward throughout his entire career. Never met anyone that thought "Kind of Blue" was a "mishmash" of sounds and I still do not understand how anyone could get to that conclusion. They barely even play over each other. It's probably some of the most relaxed jazz out there. Please stop being so annoying and drop the chip on your shoulder.
Daz1 3y ago
Yeah agreed, always thought it was an average album.
gooseyard 3y ago
I've been playing jazz most of my life and one of the most frustrating parts of it has been this idea that there should be some immediately obvious virtue in jazz as a musical style. If you're a musician who enjoys improvisation, chances are good that you'll be drawn to jazz, especially to recorded works from the era of albums like Kind of Blue. But you aren't some kind of philistine if it doesn't hook you. For example, I have studied a lot of classical repertoire in order to get my technique together to improve my jazz playing, and while I appreciate those compositions, I don't really listen to them for pleasure. My opinion about their value as works of art is not based on whether I enjoy them or not. I don't enjoy many types of food but I recognize that they have enormous value to people who do enjoy them. We like what we like, and we shouldn't judge styles on the basis of whether we like them or not. If you listen to a record like Kind of Blue and it doesn't do anything for you, don't sweat it. You wouldn't be a better person for liking it, and no true lover of jazz would judge you on the basis of whether you like that record or not. If you're genuinely curious, listen to other jazz records from the era, maybe you'll like those. If you don't, no big whoop. There's a lot of music to love. Listen to what you like.
- cfn 3y ago
  Great answer. I would add that ones taste may change with time, mine certainly did. I couldn't see the point of jazz as a youngster but came to enjoy it greatly later in life.
- bossyTeacher 3y ago
  Totally agree. People often approach music with a very rigid black/white mindset that only blinds them to the beauty of music in all its forms. I don't like sushi but I can appreciate the craft behind it and experience the collection of sensations that I go through when I consume sushi
riwsky 3y ago
Local man listens to Kind of Blue, remarks “So What”
- bossyTeacher 3y ago
  And then hums the lick
buserror 3y ago
You could try Dave Brubeck "time out" as an introduction to jazz, it is awesome in many ways and has quite a few catchier tunes. Also Bill Evans Trio and listen to that first. Only problem is that you'll be addicted for life afterward, but it's not that bad as a habit :-)
tjr 3y ago
Like many jazz albums of its era, this one uses a pretty typical standard jazz sort of formula, to wit, roughly[0] - The whole ensemble plays an arrangement of the melody of the tune - After playing the melody through, the group jumps into a series of alternating solos, in which each band member improvises new melodic ideas on top of the chord progression of the original melody - After the solos are done, the original melody is returned to, either in full or an part, to recapitulate the initial theme and bring the performance to a conclusion Do this (more or less) for each track on the album. It's really not necessarily obvious at first. It can help to follow along with sheet music. But what is the genius? Or, how is this particular jazz album more genius than another? Say, how is it more genius than "Relaxin' with the Miles Davis Quintet" which was recorded earlier (and also very good)? I think a lot of it is the particular ensemble on this record. Miles brought together a lot of truly exceptional musicians, and they all brought their own bit of genius to their own performance. If you have a jazz performance with a great trumpeter, paired with an okay pianist, an okay drummer, and an okay bassist, then the whole performance likely won't be genius. But if you pair a genius trumpeter with a genius pianist, a genius drummer, etc., then you'll likely get better results. Especially if they are all kind of genius in the same direction. On top of that, this particular album was exploring a new compositional style that emphasized modal composition rather than the more typical dominaint-tonic-oriented composition. There was a freshness to it, both for listeners at the time, and for the players themselves. They were exploring this sort of sound for the first time, and were enjoying it, bringing that mentality to how they performed. [0] Roughly indeed! I don't remember offhand if every track on Kind of Blue follows this exactly.
jsz0 3y ago
The best advice I can give anyone trying to appreciate jazz is to think of it like listening to a conversation in an unfamiliar foreign language. You don't have to understand the literal meaning of the words/notes to infer their emotional tone, pacing, and the ebb and flow of the conversation. Jazz in this way is an abstraction of spoken language. It communicates a vibe or general emotional landscape that you can interrupt for yourself in a personal way. As a more accessible starting point I'd actually recommend Miles Davis's Porgy and Bess album. It's a hybrid of Gershwin's composed music and jazz. Being more structured than most jazz recordings it will give you some context/framework to enjoy the jazzy parts. Most of the songs are short and digestible.
exitb 3y ago
People are acting all shocked, but I do feel that jazz is an acquired taste. Go listen to something like Jazz at the Pawnshop by Arne Domnérus - it's lighter and more playful. If you're into electronic music, you can also listen to nu jazz and acid jazz records to get some of the jazz "vocabulary" mixed into other genres.
aEJ04Izw5HYm 3y ago
If you aren't used to the conversation it sounds too foreign to be appreciated. You'll likely have had the experience of being around foreign language speakers, some you'll be more comfortable with than others even though you don't understand a word that are saying. Think Manga with the subtitles on or Italian opera. So it is with musicians and their jazz conversation. It takes a lot of experience and listening to really feel the jam and synchronisation. It's very rewarding if you put the time in. Took me ten years or so mainly invested in just three lauded jazz albums.
javier123454321 3y ago
Why do you want to listen to it if you don't like it? It's music that moves a lot of people, and gives an incredible depth if you want to also analyze it. If you don't even get touched emotionally then it's not for you.
bossyTeacher 3y ago
This is like grabbing a book from a Japanese store and complaining that it just seems like a mishmash of strokes. You don't just grab a Japanese book. You learn what it is first, the different writing systems, the grammar and then you start reading small sentences that build into paragraphs then groups of paragraphs. Then pages and then eventually books. Familiarise yourself with the standards and then let the infinitude of variations of them be your journey to the PRACTICE of jazz
xetplan 3y ago
If you don't like So What without an explanation then I just don't think it is for you. I love lamb vindaloo too but if you take a bite and don't like it..maybe a few repeated exposures might adjust your palette or it just might not be to your taste. Nothing wrong with that. So What though was just instant love for me. It certainly helps to be a musician though too. I can't really separate Coltrane's playing from the appreciation for his virtuosity.

This is a fascinating comment to me. I understand not really feeling jazz, but it doesn't even sound like a song to you? My only suggestion is to jump into the middle of a few songs and try to hear the rhythm and song structure. They can often be difficult to pick up when they start slow. All Blues might be the easiest. I sincerely wish you luck, because it's really incredible music.

pie420 3y ago
it's most likely someone baiting reactions on the internet by posting rage-bait disguised as naivety
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 3y ago
  Ha, jokes on them! They're getting excellent and smart replies.
- heleninboodler 3y ago
  You mean just for fun? I'm having a hard time imagining real value in doing something like karma-farming on HN. Not to mention, that would be more like anti-karma-farming.

squidsoup 3y ago

Walk through New York City. You will hear a "mishmash of sounds", and perhaps begin to understand.

khazhoux 3y ago
And make sure to wear a fedora and a sharp suit, tip the newsboy, and give a warm “heya fellas!” to the navy boys taking in Times Square.

code_runner 3y ago

Make sure you’re listening to kind of blue. Not any of the extended deluxe this and that. Just the original tracks. All the extra stuff is great, but the original is the perfect album. What music do you typically like? There will definitely be a gateway to jazz in there somewhere.

damontal 3y ago

If you listen to that kind of jazz long enough you start hearing things. Patterns. References to other songs or standards in a solo. Two players interacting and having a kind of conversation with each other. I’ve listened to this album so many times I can play it in my mind. If you’re really interested then listen to it enough so that it becomes somewhat familiar. You’ll be able to distinguish the structure from the improv and hear the interaction between the two. Bill Evans was a classical pianist. Maybe just focus on the piano and try to see what it’s doing in the song. My Favorite Things by John Coltrane may be a better place to start though. It really emphasizes a familiar melody.

WalterSear 3y ago
> If you listen to that kind of jazz long enough you start hearing things. When someone asks me for an introduction to jazz, I point them at Kind of Blue. I'm not sure what the grandparent comment is looking for.
- nicooo 3y ago
  Niels Ln Doky's TED talk [0] helped me understand and appreciate Jazz. [0] https://youtu.be/3ee-XROfON0 https://youtu.be/3ee-XROfON0

freejazz 3y ago

[flagged]

Biganon 3y ago
See, this is why I hate jazz fans. Yes, there are many people out there who love music but don't appreciate jazz. That's okay.
- freejazz 3y ago
  I know it's okay. That's why I asked if there is music that the poster recognizes as music. The poster didn't describe it as music that they didn't like, they described it as a "mishmash" of sounds. Kind of Blue isn't even particularly "mashy". You're a bit obnoxious yourself.
  - Biganon 3y ago
    And the poster began by asking for advice on how to appreciate it. It's obvious that the mishmash criticism is subjective, limited to them, and they're trying to understand better. Many people, including myself and (apparently) the poster, don't understand jazz, at least not this kind of jazz. There are jazz artists that move me (you'd probably consider them of lesser quality or "easy listening"), but I've never understood what's so amazing about Miles Davis. And it seems like every time we ask for directions, we get the same incredibly obnoxious answers, that range from "oh my God do you even have ears" to "if you need it explained, you'll never get it". Maybe I'll never get it, maybe there's a bit of pretentiousness in the fandom, maybe a bit of both, who knows.
    - freejazz 3y ago
      > And the poster began by asking for advice on how to appreciate it. It's obvious that the mishmash criticism is subjective, limited to them, and they're trying to understand better. That's not obvious at all, and you remain obnoxious. Huge leap to go to from "understanding jazz" to "is this even music?" as the other poster pointed out. >There are jazz artists that move me (you'd probably consider them of lesser quality or "easy listening") Lol. I see, you've got a chip on your shoulder, and you are taking it out on me. > And it seems like every time we ask for directions, we get the same incredibly obnoxious answers, that range from "oh my God do you even have ears" to "if you need it explained, you'll never get it" It wasn't asking for "how to listen to it" that elicited the response the poster received, as was expressed to you numerous times. >Maybe I'll never get it, maybe there's a bit of pretentiousness in the fandom, maybe a bit of both, who knows. Once again there's a huge difference between "getting" something and recognizing that there is melody. > but I've never understood what's so amazing about Miles Davis Well, he has a gigantic body of music and is considered one of the most important figures in Jazz because the drive and diversity of his music has pushed the genre forward throughout his entire career. Never met anyone that thought "Kind of Blue" was a "mishmash" of sounds and I still do not understand how anyone could get to that conclusion. They barely even play over each other. It's probably some of the most relaxed jazz out there. Please stop being so annoying and drop the chip on your shoulder.

Daz1 3y ago

Yeah agreed, always thought it was an average album.

gooseyard 3y ago

I've been playing jazz most of my life and one of the most frustrating parts of it has been this idea that there should be some immediately obvious virtue in jazz as a musical style. If you're a musician who enjoys improvisation, chances are good that you'll be drawn to jazz, especially to recorded works from the era of albums like Kind of Blue. But you aren't some kind of philistine if it doesn't hook you. For example, I have studied a lot of classical repertoire in order to get my technique together to improve my jazz playing, and while I appreciate those compositions, I don't really listen to them for pleasure. My opinion about their value as works of art is not based on whether I enjoy them or not. I don't enjoy many types of food but I recognize that they have enormous value to people who do enjoy them. We like what we like, and we shouldn't judge styles on the basis of whether we like them or not. If you listen to a record like Kind of Blue and it doesn't do anything for you, don't sweat it. You wouldn't be a better person for liking it, and no true lover of jazz would judge you on the basis of whether you like that record or not. If you're genuinely curious, listen to other jazz records from the era, maybe you'll like those. If you don't, no big whoop. There's a lot of music to love. Listen to what you like.

cfn 3y ago
Great answer. I would add that ones taste may change with time, mine certainly did. I couldn't see the point of jazz as a youngster but came to enjoy it greatly later in life.
bossyTeacher 3y ago
Totally agree. People often approach music with a very rigid black/white mindset that only blinds them to the beauty of music in all its forms. I don't like sushi but I can appreciate the craft behind it and experience the collection of sensations that I go through when I consume sushi

riwsky 3y ago

Local man listens to Kind of Blue, remarks “So What”

bossyTeacher 3y ago
And then hums the lick

buserror 3y ago

You could try Dave Brubeck "time out" as an introduction to jazz, it is awesome in many ways and has quite a few catchier tunes. Also Bill Evans Trio and listen to that first. Only problem is that you'll be addicted for life afterward, but it's not that bad as a habit :-)

tjr 3y ago

Like many jazz albums of its era, this one uses a pretty typical standard jazz sort of formula, to wit, roughly[0] - The whole ensemble plays an arrangement of the melody of the tune - After playing the melody through, the group jumps into a series of alternating solos, in which each band member improvises new melodic ideas on top of the chord progression of the original melody - After the solos are done, the original melody is returned to, either in full or an part, to recapitulate the initial theme and bring the performance to a conclusion Do this (more or less) for each track on the album. It's really not necessarily obvious at first. It can help to follow along with sheet music. But what is the genius? Or, how is this particular jazz album more genius than another? Say, how is it more genius than "Relaxin' with the Miles Davis Quintet" which was recorded earlier (and also very good)? I think a lot of it is the particular ensemble on this record. Miles brought together a lot of truly exceptional musicians, and they all brought their own bit of genius to their own performance. If you have a jazz performance with a great trumpeter, paired with an okay pianist, an okay drummer, and an okay bassist, then the whole performance likely won't be genius. But if you pair a genius trumpeter with a genius pianist, a genius drummer, etc., then you'll likely get better results. Especially if they are all kind of genius in the same direction. On top of that, this particular album was exploring a new compositional style that emphasized modal composition rather than the more typical dominaint-tonic-oriented composition. There was a freshness to it, both for listeners at the time, and for the players themselves. They were exploring this sort of sound for the first time, and were enjoying it, bringing that mentality to how they performed. [0] Roughly indeed! I don't remember offhand if every track on Kind of Blue follows this exactly.

jsz0 3y ago

The best advice I can give anyone trying to appreciate jazz is to think of it like listening to a conversation in an unfamiliar foreign language. You don't have to understand the literal meaning of the words/notes to infer their emotional tone, pacing, and the ebb and flow of the conversation. Jazz in this way is an abstraction of spoken language. It communicates a vibe or general emotional landscape that you can interrupt for yourself in a personal way. As a more accessible starting point I'd actually recommend Miles Davis's Porgy and Bess album. It's a hybrid of Gershwin's composed music and jazz. Being more structured than most jazz recordings it will give you some context/framework to enjoy the jazzy parts. Most of the songs are short and digestible.

exitb 3y ago

People are acting all shocked, but I do feel that jazz is an acquired taste. Go listen to something like Jazz at the Pawnshop by Arne Domnérus - it's lighter and more playful. If you're into electronic music, you can also listen to nu jazz and acid jazz records to get some of the jazz "vocabulary" mixed into other genres.

aEJ04Izw5HYm 3y ago

If you aren't used to the conversation it sounds too foreign to be appreciated. You'll likely have had the experience of being around foreign language speakers, some you'll be more comfortable with than others even though you don't understand a word that are saying. Think Manga with the subtitles on or Italian opera. So it is with musicians and their jazz conversation. It takes a lot of experience and listening to really feel the jam and synchronisation. It's very rewarding if you put the time in. Took me ten years or so mainly invested in just three lauded jazz albums.

javier123454321 3y ago

Why do you want to listen to it if you don't like it? It's music that moves a lot of people, and gives an incredible depth if you want to also analyze it. If you don't even get touched emotionally then it's not for you.

bossyTeacher 3y ago

This is like grabbing a book from a Japanese store and complaining that it just seems like a mishmash of strokes. You don't just grab a Japanese book. You learn what it is first, the different writing systems, the grammar and then you start reading small sentences that build into paragraphs then groups of paragraphs. Then pages and then eventually books. Familiarise yourself with the standards and then let the infinitude of variations of them be your journey to the PRACTICE of jazz

xetplan 3y ago

If you don't like So What without an explanation then I just don't think it is for you. I love lamb vindaloo too but if you take a bite and don't like it..maybe a few repeated exposures might adjust your palette or it just might not be to your taste. Nothing wrong with that. So What though was just instant love for me. It certainly helps to be a musician though too. I can't really separate Coltrane's playing from the appreciation for his virtuosity.