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I was recently buying a Dell laptop for my sister and it boggles my mind how most other companies (maybe Framework is an except) still have dozens or even 100s

I was recently buying a Dell laptop for my sister and it boggles my mind how most other companies (maybe Framework is an except) still have dozens or even 100s of SKUs for consumer laptops. I didn't enjoy the process of looking through dozens of various lines that Dell has and then other companies like Lenovo and HP earlier in the process, just to find a "mid-range usable computer with a decent screen". If you didn't know anything about laptops and wanted to buy your first one, it would be a nightmare to figure out what all those seemingly random numbers mean on most non-Apple laptops. Apple continues to simplify the laptop naming scheme, we're at a point where it's simply: Air OR Pro Small screen OR big screen All other details can be configured in the buying flow but there's not much to think about if you just want a simple laptop.

skadamat 3y ago
Definitely agree with the simplicity of purchasing an Apple computer compared to other laptop manufacturers. Headphone brands and monitor makers also suffer from this same fate :/
- rchaud 3y ago
  Not that simple when there are multiple generations of each on sale, with wildly different prices should you change the storage or RAM toggle. The MacBook Air used to have a multiple USB-A ports plus video, now it 2 ports that have to handle everything. So now the dongle/no dongle question has to become considered as well.
  - skadamat 3y ago
    Agreed that even Apple products have gotten confusing. But still 1-2 orders of magnitude less I feel than other laptops?
    - jpalomaki 3y ago
      I think the lineup and config options on Apple laptops and tablets are carefully planned to make you spend more than you intially thought. You start with the idea of cheap model, then start going the ladders up.
      - microtonal 3y ago
        Maybe, but I know plenty of non-tech people that just buy the baseline MacBook Air and are happy with it.
        tcmart14 3y ago
        I think both are true. For non-tech people, or people who don't use a computer for real hard work, who want a decent laptop, they probably just buy the baseline Air. But once you get into doing some more professional stuff on a laptop that needs power, then you fall into talking yourself into more than what you intended. I am experiencing that right now. At the time I didn't have a lot of money, working full time to support a family and going to school, so when I needed a new laptop I got the base MBA M1. Fantastic laptop. But now I am doing more intensive stuff (I also make a lot more now so I can afford it) on it and I am looking at upgrading to an M3. I am playing with the GPU and some ML, so I probably should get more than a base model M3. From there it is, whatever I decided, the next upgrade it just an extra $200. More ram would be nice. Oh wait, for another $200, I can also get the better processor with 2 more cores for CPU, GPU, and Neural Engine, why not? Oh wait, $200 more and I can double the RAM. Next thing you now, I started off with $1599 and now have talked myself into a like $2200 (haven't made the purchase yet, but that is what I am looking at).
      - harkinian 3y ago
        The tablets are. Buy an iPad, then spend like $600 on hardware accessories and apps to basically turn it into a laptop. Everyone I know who bought one has just left it around the house as a random toy. But I'm a heavy user, and that 2015 baseline MBP is still fine.
  - gumby 3y ago
    > The MacBook Air used to have a multiple USB-A ports plus video, now it 2 ports that have to handle everything. I doubt this is much of a constraint in the real world. Most people plug power in, perhaps an external mouse, and that's it. (They should be plugging in external storage for backups, which might require an extra port, but I doubt most people do in practice). > So now the dongle/no dongle question has to become considered as well. I'm pretty much USB-C only at this point, but even before then I never understood the fixation on "dongles".
  - microtonal 3y ago
    Not everything. MacBooks have MagSafe for power, which frees a port for power or having to use an adapter with power passthrough. Though it’s not a big issue in practice. When at home or the office, I just plug into a display with a USB or Thunderbolt hub. On-the-go, the Apple adapter works great. Having to plug more than one cable is annoying anyway when you move between desks.
  - harkinian 3y ago
    I hate dealing with USB-C, but on laptops, it hardly matters. Pretty rare that I'm plugging in anything besides power.
- Electricniko 3y ago
  There's still some weirdness as you get higher in the lineup. They start to break out into different variations of each chip, with varying degrees of memory for each variation. Like you can get a Macbook Pro with an M3 Pro chip with 11 core CPU/14 core GPU, or an M3 Pro chip 12/14 cores, or an M3 Max chip with 14/30 cores for $400 more or 16/40 for $900 more. And if you do the 14/30 M3 Max, you can choose 36 or 96gb memory, but if you choose the 16/40 Max, you can choose 48 64 or 128gb memory.
  - tcmart14 3y ago
    Love my macbooks that I've had, but yea. When shopping, it is rather aggrevating that there is no such thing really as just M3, M3 Pro, M3 Max, and M3 Ultra. Its really M3, M3 Pro (11/14/15), M3 Pro (12/18/16), M3 Pro (14/30/16), M3 Max(14/30/16), M3 Max (16/30/16), M3 Max (16/40/16).
izacus 3y ago
Oh come on, you're overexaggerating a bit. If you follow your pattern with Apple, you'll end up with a measly 8GB/256GB model which will only be useful for basic browsing. (And with more and more Electron apps, might struggle even with that once you hop onto a video call.)
- Seanambers 3y ago
  "will only be useful for basic browsing" nah.
- technothrasher 3y ago
  > you'll end up with a measly 8GB/256GB model which will only be useful for basic browsing. I must be doing something wrong then. I've got one of those measly models and I do quite a bit more than just basic browsing without any problem. Video calls are the least of that, and they work fine.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Video calls require trivial amounts of memory and no real storage at all. Video editing, on the other hand, would pretty quickly fill up a 256GB drive. If you want to play with the fun new AI stuff, 8GB of RAM isn't enough. Modern machines also have a nefarious failure mode. It used to be that you needed more memory to cache the hard drive, but SSDs are pretty fast and that doesn't matter as much anymore. So now you have the opposite problem -- if you're out of memory and start swapping you don't notice as much, because SSDs are pretty fast. Except that now you're silently wearing out your SSD. Which in the Macs, is soldered.
  - sva_ 3y ago
    > I'll have you know, my 2023 $1300 laptop is capable of doing video calls Weird flex
- lcmatt 3y ago
  I have the base level M2 Air and it’s anything but a basic browsing machine. Runs everything I throw at it development wise, while a good few other things are open and it has never felt slow. Compare that to any Windows laptops with the same spec and it would be chugging along with just Chrome open.
bmitc 3y ago
Have you ever tried to trade in an Apple prdoduct? They ask you to enter the serial number and then bizarrely ask you to indentify to device. You basically have to refer to MacRumors to get it right. Apple has the same problem, if not worse. Dell has XPS 13, XPS 15, and XPS 17 and now the plus designation. It's pretty easy.
- quenix 3y ago
  I've traded in multiple and only ever had to enter the serial number.
- rad_gruchalski 3y ago
  Huh, the xps itself has 36 SKUs in Germany. Then there’s Latitude, Inspiron, Vostro, Alienware, Gaming Pro, Mobile Precision Workstation…
- superb_dev 3y ago
  I’ve done a trade in a few times with Apple and it’s always been simple. There’s a serial number on the device, or you could just select it from devices attached to your account
- wlesieutre 3y ago
  Disregarding that there are 10 different laptop product lines to choose from, if I've already somehow decided that what I want is an XPS and I want a 13 inch screen size, my first two search results are - XPS 13 Laptop or - XPS 13 Laptop https://i.imgur.com/2SHL91Y.png https://i.imgur.com/2SHL91Y.png I gather that one of these is a newer revision than the other, but it's a lot more confusing than "M2" and "M3". I need to know whether I want (up to) a Core Ultra 7 155H vs a Core i7-1250U, and whether (up to) Intel Arc Graphics is better than Intel Iris Xe graphics. Scrolling down further adds the XPS 13 Plus and XPS 13 2-in-1 Laptop. How does XPS 13 Plus compared to XPS 13 Laptop? What about to the other XPS 13 Laptop, is it better than both? Or is this a weird side-grade where you get a different form factor which is in some ways nicer, but then also comes with all the dumb parts of the Apple's "Touch Bar" and none of the good parts? (that's my 10 second interpretation of the product, but more clueless customers will have absolutely no idea)
croes 3y ago
It pretty easy with no competitor for the MacOS segment. All those numbers try to hide that they basically sell all the same.
makeitdouble 3y ago
> Apple continues to simplify the laptop naming scheme, we're at a point where it's simply: > Air OR Pro > Small screen OR big screen The weird part of that argument to me: to arrive to that point you've already made a ton of choices that need to be educated. You decided on the form factor: you don't want a convertible (neither a Surface like tablet + keyboard, nor something like a Yoga). You decided to forgo touch. You decided you don't really want to game. You also evaluated you don't need anything Windows or x86 only. Then sure there's about 10 models. But at that point is it much complicated than say, choose from the DELL XPS line ?
- Longhanks 3y ago
  In my experience, most people looking for "just a notebook" don't care about any of those things. They want a low maintenance, high performant (for day-to-day tasks, not gaming) portable computer with a great battery that runs Chrome, Office and Spotify, and comes with great customer service - nothing comes close to being able to bring your Mac to the next Apple Store.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    You could just get a Chromebook for that and save yourself a ton of money. It's what my wife did, and she's not wanted anything else for seven years. It isn't close to an apple device in terms of materials or performance, but at a tenth of the cost of a pro it makes a lot of sense.
    - garrickvanburen 3y ago
      Laptops in my household are a mix of Macs and Chromebooks. All are >5yrs old. Love the resilience and useful life of both.
    - eropple 3y ago
      I've had a couple of Chromebooks and enjoyed them, but I never found one with a keyboard that didn't feel terrible to type on. Does one exist today?
agumonkey 3y ago
Even at a logistical / production level.. having all theses different units, options, suppliers, information, incompatibilities, tests, after sales.. insane.
okasaki 3y ago
If you know what you want then most sites will have filters to narrow down the choices very quickly. If you don't know what you want and nobody told you what you need then any model is probably fine. I don't get it. What's so great about Apple's lack of choice?
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > then any model is probably fine Er, no. You still need something. You just don't know what.
Spooky23 3y ago
This was Apple’s secret - they punch bigger with large quantities of components. When the original iMac came out, it was by far the #1 computer SKU. It was way better than competing products at the price range because of those economies of scale.
spaceman_2020 3y ago
I finally made the switch to Apple after being thoroughly frustrated with Windows laptops. It's not even close to a competition. Macbooks are just so far ahead of everyone else that you can't even compare them. Most Windows laptops have abysmal batteries, to the point that you can barely call them laptops. The trackpads are downright unusable. The keyboards are a hit or a miss. And for some reason, so many companies are still shipping laptops with 1080p screens in 2024. Anything even remotely within Macbook vicinity costs the same as a Macbook anyway. Increasingly feels like most manufacturers have given up on the laptop as an innovation center and are happy to just scrape up the consumers who can't or won't buy Apple.
- jb1991 3y ago
  I'm still using an original M1 Air and the thing is used nearly all day for light casual web usage, and I only plug it in about two times per week -- the energy efficiency is no joke. This kind of battery life really spoils you and when you see other laptops that nearly require the plug charging all the time, tethered, you realize what a big deal these M chips are for true portability.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    I end up forgetting my charger when I go on trips because 99% of the time when I unplug my laptop at home (to use in a different room), I never need the charge cable. It used to be 50% of the time I'd take the cable with me, so I could be somewhere else for 2+ hours. Now I so rarely bring the charger that it just doesn't even occur to me when I'm unplugging the thing to pack. It's night-and-day compared to the Intel MBPs.
    - nicoburns 3y ago
      Now that laptops (including but not limited to macbooks) can charge via USB C I just have one charger that I take for both my phone and laptop. Sometimes I take two cables so I can charge both at once. Sometimes I don't bother.
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slaymaker1907 3y ago
I think System76 also has a pretty simple evaluation process. You mostly just select the form factor you want and then configure it. Also, unlike Apple, they make it easy to get a machine exactly tailored to your needs. They don't force you to pay $$$ for an expensive processor when you just want a bit larger SSD and some extra memory...
diffeomorphism 3y ago
Okay, without googling tell me: what is an Apple model number Z15T_5108? > All other details can be configured in the buying flow but there's not much to think about if you just want a simple laptop. You would think so, but unfortunately not. Apple is quite good at upselling and their price gating for screens, ram etc. is very opaque. In other words: whether you want the air with non-sabotaged specs or the pro or the pro pro or the pro max is not simple.
- 015a 3y ago
  > the air with non-sabotaged specs Anyone who says this has never used an 8/256 Air post-M1, and is complaining about them hypothetically. They're fine. They're fantastic computers. You can upgrade to 16/512, which puts the machine at $1500. This is $200 cheaper than a Dell XPS 14 16/512. "But the Dell has dedicated graphics" no it doesn't. "But, well, the Dell has a higher resolution display" no, its actually 1080p, the Air is higher resolution. "But, but, the dell, its, uh, no wait never mind don't buy Dell, buy a (insert some other brand)" the thing a lot of people really don't want to accept about Macs, right now, is that they're actually so extremely obviously the best computer money can buy that its irresponsible to buy anything else at $1000 and above (unless you're gaming or doing AI, but get a desktop at that point).
  - eropple 3y ago
    Just checking: are you saying that the M2 and M3 make 8GB/256GB viable, or that they were for the M1 Air too? Because I had an M1 Air with 8GB of RAM for a while, and that thing was painful. I haven't had to be careful about how many tabs I had open in a browser for a long time--but I also haven't had 8GB of RAM in a long time, either.
    - sgarland 3y ago
      I’ve had my base M1 since a few months after launch, and the only slowdowns I’ve experienced are when I turn on low power mode. Even then, it’s more that apps are slow to launch, not that they’re unresponsive once open. I generally have between 4-10 tabs at any given time; how many do you have?
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> I didn't enjoy the process of looking through dozens of various lines that Dell has and then other companies like Lenovo and HP earlier in the process, just to find a "mid-range usable computer with a decent screen". Newegg's feature selector is pretty good at sorting through this. Just uncheck all the bad screen resolutions and CPU models and see what's left. Bonus: Require at least 32GB of memory in an exact power of two, excluding all the junk that solders 8GB to the system board.
- paulmd 3y ago
  It is perfectly possible to have dual-channel 12+12GB configurations and also unbalanced 8+24GB configurations, so your test is not really accurate.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    12+12GB doesn't result in a power of 2. 8+24GB does, but there are no 24GB DDR4 SODIMMs to make it with, so that's only possible with DDR5. Moreover, even though that is possible, you can then look at the specs to confirm that it isn't the case, having already filtered out all of the junk where it clearly is the case, e.g. when the machine has 40GB.
michaelt 3y ago
> it boggles my mind how most other companies (maybe Framework is an except) still have dozens or even 100s of SKUs for consumer laptops And the crazy thing is, despite Dell having 170+ laptop SKUs they don't use that fact to actually have a wide range of products. You'd think with 170 different SKUs they could produce an ultrabook with ports, wouldn't you? A modernised version of the E7270? Apparently not, though.
yodsanklai 3y ago
This will sound slightly provocative but I genuinely wonder: why would anyone buy anything else than an apple laptop? Gaming? ideology? budget constraints? lack of familiarity with MacOS? They are marginally more expensive, but they also very easy to sell second-hand. I'm speculating that the monthly cost is on par with a PC.
- harkinian 3y ago
  If you need Windows programs for your work, or need the ports, or want to play games, that kinda answers the question. The Mac laptops are otherwise just better for most people. And the often-repeated "every user is different" is not really true; most people fit the mold.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    >most people fit the mold. Which mould though? I'd say most fit the Windows mould, but I'm guessing you mean the Apple mould.
    - harkinian 3y ago
      I mean that most people who buy laptops fit the mold of needing web browsing, email, documents, and maybe file management. They can solve that with Windows, Mac, or maybe even Chromebook. There isn't usually a reason they need one in particular, the Mac just tends to be the nicest option, or the Chromebook if you're on a tight budget.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  Lots of people doesn't see Apple laptops like you obviously do. Ask provocative questions and you'll get likewise answers. For my needs and my opinions: - The software is worse. Linux is better. Windows has much broader options. I run both. - I game. - Ideology? Yes, Apple is an awful company. - Familiarity? I have used it enough to know it cannot do a lot of things I need, want, like, etc. - Budget? Yes, but not because it is too expensive, but because it cannot do anywhere near what Linux and Windows can do (for me) for way less. >I'm speculating that the monthly cost is on par with a PC. What is the monthly cost of a Mac that can run games, run old software I require for work and hobbies and (importantly) isn't locked down in either hardware or software so I can use it for something completely different later in life?
precompute 3y ago
Ah. Apple fanboys and their partly-usable, overpriced laptops with notches. You have to buy ONCE, it's not like you have to worry about what other laptop you could've bought every single time you use one. Do the research, buy a $600 laptop. It's usually adequate for everything except gaming.
varispeed 3y ago
Is your system your enemy? Serious question. Having suffered through many Dell laptops (flagships) I'd rather flush the money down the pan than buy one machine from them. What Dell is selling in comparison to Apple is legacy technology with shoddy workmanship.
- numbers 3y ago
  my sister needed a laptop that runs windows so dell was one of the many options
freeAgent 3y ago
If a normal person just wants a “simple laptop,” they can go to Best Buy or whatever brick and mortar and pull one off the shelf. They don’t need to dig into hundreds of SKUs unless they want to do so.
- harkinian 3y ago
  BestBuy will still have a ton of different options that look similar but one is inexplicably a lot more expensive than another, even within the same brand.
rmbyrro 3y ago
The only non-user friendly defaults in the Mac purchasing flow are the 8G RAM and 256G SSD. I think in 2024, 16G & 512G should be the default, with an option to downgrade. With such bloated webapps now a days, those 8G of RAM are going to cook too fast...
harywilke 3y ago
Really surprised not to see any mention of the 2x2 grid Jobs introduced in 1998: Pro, Consumer, Desktop, and Portable. It was the solution to exactly this problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cZg8pLmXk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cZg8pLmXk about 6 minutes in.
grow2grow 3y ago
They do it so that the consumer can't price match nor return swap from one retailer to another. The model number ultimately becomes a type of trace to reveal which retailer sold the device.
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sidkshatriya 3y ago
> I was recently buying a Dell laptop for my sister and it boggles my mind how most other companies (maybe Framework is an except) still have dozens or even 100s of SKUs for consumer laptops. If you remember back in the day, Nokia also had a crazy number of SKUs for their phones. Nokia is no longer the power it used to be. Could it mean many SKUS means a lack of focus ? Thinking you can out market / out segment your competition rather than try to concentrate more on the product ? I find AMD also has less SKUs than Intel. Here, as a challenger you can't really afford to segment the market as much as the leader. You need to concentrate your offerings in a few potent products.
kmeisthax 3y ago
Having 100s of SKUs is an information denial tactic to ensure that users forfeit all of their consumer surplus[0] and pay exactly what they are willing to pay in the hopes that they get a "good one". The problem with this tactic is that there's a lot of SKUs that give people a terrible experience and they jump to another brand. Apple's solution to this is to instead have 50 SKUs, organize them by a few very easily understandable categories, and then price every SKU exactly within $50-$75 of one another so that there's always a meaningful upgrade for slightly more money. This is also why Apple is very stingy with storage and RAM. They use the cost of upgrades to pull you to higher priced SKUs, which then need their own upgrades, and OH LOOK there's an even nicer base model for just a little more! [0] The amount of money you save when the thing you want to buy turns out to be cheaper than what you were willing to pay.
colmmacc 3y ago
I've always assumed that the number of SKUs is so that retailers can have a (relatively) unique model and avoid price comparisons. Like mattresses.

skadamat 3y ago

Definitely agree with the simplicity of purchasing an Apple computer compared to other laptop manufacturers. Headphone brands and monitor makers also suffer from this same fate :/

rchaud 3y ago
Not that simple when there are multiple generations of each on sale, with wildly different prices should you change the storage or RAM toggle. The MacBook Air used to have a multiple USB-A ports plus video, now it 2 ports that have to handle everything. So now the dongle/no dongle question has to become considered as well.
- skadamat 3y ago
  Agreed that even Apple products have gotten confusing. But still 1-2 orders of magnitude less I feel than other laptops?
  - jpalomaki 3y ago
    I think the lineup and config options on Apple laptops and tablets are carefully planned to make you spend more than you intially thought. You start with the idea of cheap model, then start going the ladders up.
    - microtonal 3y ago
      Maybe, but I know plenty of non-tech people that just buy the baseline MacBook Air and are happy with it.
      - tcmart14 3y ago
        I think both are true. For non-tech people, or people who don't use a computer for real hard work, who want a decent laptop, they probably just buy the baseline Air. But once you get into doing some more professional stuff on a laptop that needs power, then you fall into talking yourself into more than what you intended. I am experiencing that right now. At the time I didn't have a lot of money, working full time to support a family and going to school, so when I needed a new laptop I got the base MBA M1. Fantastic laptop. But now I am doing more intensive stuff (I also make a lot more now so I can afford it) on it and I am looking at upgrading to an M3. I am playing with the GPU and some ML, so I probably should get more than a base model M3. From there it is, whatever I decided, the next upgrade it just an extra $200. More ram would be nice. Oh wait, for another $200, I can also get the better processor with 2 more cores for CPU, GPU, and Neural Engine, why not? Oh wait, $200 more and I can double the RAM. Next thing you now, I started off with $1599 and now have talked myself into a like $2200 (haven't made the purchase yet, but that is what I am looking at).
    - harkinian 3y ago
      The tablets are. Buy an iPad, then spend like $600 on hardware accessories and apps to basically turn it into a laptop. Everyone I know who bought one has just left it around the house as a random toy. But I'm a heavy user, and that 2015 baseline MBP is still fine.
- gumby 3y ago
  > The MacBook Air used to have a multiple USB-A ports plus video, now it 2 ports that have to handle everything. I doubt this is much of a constraint in the real world. Most people plug power in, perhaps an external mouse, and that's it. (They should be plugging in external storage for backups, which might require an extra port, but I doubt most people do in practice). > So now the dongle/no dongle question has to become considered as well. I'm pretty much USB-C only at this point, but even before then I never understood the fixation on "dongles".
- microtonal 3y ago
  Not everything. MacBooks have MagSafe for power, which frees a port for power or having to use an adapter with power passthrough. Though it’s not a big issue in practice. When at home or the office, I just plug into a display with a USB or Thunderbolt hub. On-the-go, the Apple adapter works great. Having to plug more than one cable is annoying anyway when you move between desks.
- harkinian 3y ago
  I hate dealing with USB-C, but on laptops, it hardly matters. Pretty rare that I'm plugging in anything besides power.
Electricniko 3y ago
There's still some weirdness as you get higher in the lineup. They start to break out into different variations of each chip, with varying degrees of memory for each variation. Like you can get a Macbook Pro with an M3 Pro chip with 11 core CPU/14 core GPU, or an M3 Pro chip 12/14 cores, or an M3 Max chip with 14/30 cores for $400 more or 16/40 for $900 more. And if you do the 14/30 M3 Max, you can choose 36 or 96gb memory, but if you choose the 16/40 Max, you can choose 48 64 or 128gb memory.
- tcmart14 3y ago
  Love my macbooks that I've had, but yea. When shopping, it is rather aggrevating that there is no such thing really as just M3, M3 Pro, M3 Max, and M3 Ultra. Its really M3, M3 Pro (11/14/15), M3 Pro (12/18/16), M3 Pro (14/30/16), M3 Max(14/30/16), M3 Max (16/30/16), M3 Max (16/40/16).

izacus 3y ago

Oh come on, you're overexaggerating a bit. If you follow your pattern with Apple, you'll end up with a measly 8GB/256GB model which will only be useful for basic browsing. (And with more and more Electron apps, might struggle even with that once you hop onto a video call.)

Seanambers 3y ago
"will only be useful for basic browsing" nah.
technothrasher 3y ago
> you'll end up with a measly 8GB/256GB model which will only be useful for basic browsing. I must be doing something wrong then. I've got one of those measly models and I do quite a bit more than just basic browsing without any problem. Video calls are the least of that, and they work fine.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Video calls require trivial amounts of memory and no real storage at all. Video editing, on the other hand, would pretty quickly fill up a 256GB drive. If you want to play with the fun new AI stuff, 8GB of RAM isn't enough. Modern machines also have a nefarious failure mode. It used to be that you needed more memory to cache the hard drive, but SSDs are pretty fast and that doesn't matter as much anymore. So now you have the opposite problem -- if you're out of memory and start swapping you don't notice as much, because SSDs are pretty fast. Except that now you're silently wearing out your SSD. Which in the Macs, is soldered.
- sva_ 3y ago
  > I'll have you know, my 2023 $1300 laptop is capable of doing video calls Weird flex
lcmatt 3y ago
I have the base level M2 Air and it’s anything but a basic browsing machine. Runs everything I throw at it development wise, while a good few other things are open and it has never felt slow. Compare that to any Windows laptops with the same spec and it would be chugging along with just Chrome open.

bmitc 3y ago

Have you ever tried to trade in an Apple prdoduct? They ask you to enter the serial number and then bizarrely ask you to indentify to device. You basically have to refer to MacRumors to get it right. Apple has the same problem, if not worse. Dell has XPS 13, XPS 15, and XPS 17 and now the plus designation. It's pretty easy.

quenix 3y ago
I've traded in multiple and only ever had to enter the serial number.
rad_gruchalski 3y ago
Huh, the xps itself has 36 SKUs in Germany. Then there’s Latitude, Inspiron, Vostro, Alienware, Gaming Pro, Mobile Precision Workstation…
superb_dev 3y ago
I’ve done a trade in a few times with Apple and it’s always been simple. There’s a serial number on the device, or you could just select it from devices attached to your account
wlesieutre 3y ago
Disregarding that there are 10 different laptop product lines to choose from, if I've already somehow decided that what I want is an XPS and I want a 13 inch screen size, my first two search results are - XPS 13 Laptop or - XPS 13 Laptop https://i.imgur.com/2SHL91Y.png https://i.imgur.com/2SHL91Y.png I gather that one of these is a newer revision than the other, but it's a lot more confusing than "M2" and "M3". I need to know whether I want (up to) a Core Ultra 7 155H vs a Core i7-1250U, and whether (up to) Intel Arc Graphics is better than Intel Iris Xe graphics. Scrolling down further adds the XPS 13 Plus and XPS 13 2-in-1 Laptop. How does XPS 13 Plus compared to XPS 13 Laptop? What about to the other XPS 13 Laptop, is it better than both? Or is this a weird side-grade where you get a different form factor which is in some ways nicer, but then also comes with all the dumb parts of the Apple's "Touch Bar" and none of the good parts? (that's my 10 second interpretation of the product, but more clueless customers will have absolutely no idea)

croes 3y ago

It pretty easy with no competitor for the MacOS segment. All those numbers try to hide that they basically sell all the same.

makeitdouble 3y ago

> Apple continues to simplify the laptop naming scheme, we're at a point where it's simply: > Air OR Pro > Small screen OR big screen The weird part of that argument to me: to arrive to that point you've already made a ton of choices that need to be educated. You decided on the form factor: you don't want a convertible (neither a Surface like tablet + keyboard, nor something like a Yoga). You decided to forgo touch. You decided you don't really want to game. You also evaluated you don't need anything Windows or x86 only. Then sure there's about 10 models. But at that point is it much complicated than say, choose from the DELL XPS line ?

Longhanks 3y ago
In my experience, most people looking for "just a notebook" don't care about any of those things. They want a low maintenance, high performant (for day-to-day tasks, not gaming) portable computer with a great battery that runs Chrome, Office and Spotify, and comes with great customer service - nothing comes close to being able to bring your Mac to the next Apple Store.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  You could just get a Chromebook for that and save yourself a ton of money. It's what my wife did, and she's not wanted anything else for seven years. It isn't close to an apple device in terms of materials or performance, but at a tenth of the cost of a pro it makes a lot of sense.
  - garrickvanburen 3y ago
    Laptops in my household are a mix of Macs and Chromebooks. All are >5yrs old. Love the resilience and useful life of both.
  - eropple 3y ago
    I've had a couple of Chromebooks and enjoyed them, but I never found one with a keyboard that didn't feel terrible to type on. Does one exist today?

agumonkey 3y ago

Even at a logistical / production level.. having all theses different units, options, suppliers, information, incompatibilities, tests, after sales.. insane.

okasaki 3y ago

If you know what you want then most sites will have filters to narrow down the choices very quickly. If you don't know what you want and nobody told you what you need then any model is probably fine. I don't get it. What's so great about Apple's lack of choice?

robertlagrant 3y ago
> then any model is probably fine Er, no. You still need something. You just don't know what.

Spooky23 3y ago

This was Apple’s secret - they punch bigger with large quantities of components. When the original iMac came out, it was by far the #1 computer SKU. It was way better than competing products at the price range because of those economies of scale.

spaceman_2020 3y ago

I finally made the switch to Apple after being thoroughly frustrated with Windows laptops. It's not even close to a competition. Macbooks are just so far ahead of everyone else that you can't even compare them. Most Windows laptops have abysmal batteries, to the point that you can barely call them laptops. The trackpads are downright unusable. The keyboards are a hit or a miss. And for some reason, so many companies are still shipping laptops with 1080p screens in 2024. Anything even remotely within Macbook vicinity costs the same as a Macbook anyway. Increasingly feels like most manufacturers have given up on the laptop as an innovation center and are happy to just scrape up the consumers who can't or won't buy Apple.

jb1991 3y ago
I'm still using an original M1 Air and the thing is used nearly all day for light casual web usage, and I only plug it in about two times per week -- the energy efficiency is no joke. This kind of battery life really spoils you and when you see other laptops that nearly require the plug charging all the time, tethered, you realize what a big deal these M chips are for true portability.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  I end up forgetting my charger when I go on trips because 99% of the time when I unplug my laptop at home (to use in a different room), I never need the charge cable. It used to be 50% of the time I'd take the cable with me, so I could be somewhere else for 2+ hours. Now I so rarely bring the charger that it just doesn't even occur to me when I'm unplugging the thing to pack. It's night-and-day compared to the Intel MBPs.
  - nicoburns 3y ago
    Now that laptops (including but not limited to macbooks) can charge via USB C I just have one charger that I take for both my phone and laptop. Sometimes I take two cables so I can charge both at once. Sometimes I don't bother.

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slaymaker1907 3y ago

I think System76 also has a pretty simple evaluation process. You mostly just select the form factor you want and then configure it. Also, unlike Apple, they make it easy to get a machine exactly tailored to your needs. They don't force you to pay $$$ for an expensive processor when you just want a bit larger SSD and some extra memory...

diffeomorphism 3y ago

Okay, without googling tell me: what is an Apple model number Z15T_5108? > All other details can be configured in the buying flow but there's not much to think about if you just want a simple laptop. You would think so, but unfortunately not. Apple is quite good at upselling and their price gating for screens, ram etc. is very opaque. In other words: whether you want the air with non-sabotaged specs or the pro or the pro pro or the pro max is not simple.

015a 3y ago
> the air with non-sabotaged specs Anyone who says this has never used an 8/256 Air post-M1, and is complaining about them hypothetically. They're fine. They're fantastic computers. You can upgrade to 16/512, which puts the machine at $1500. This is $200 cheaper than a Dell XPS 14 16/512. "But the Dell has dedicated graphics" no it doesn't. "But, well, the Dell has a higher resolution display" no, its actually 1080p, the Air is higher resolution. "But, but, the dell, its, uh, no wait never mind don't buy Dell, buy a (insert some other brand)" the thing a lot of people really don't want to accept about Macs, right now, is that they're actually so extremely obviously the best computer money can buy that its irresponsible to buy anything else at $1000 and above (unless you're gaming or doing AI, but get a desktop at that point).
- eropple 3y ago
  Just checking: are you saying that the M2 and M3 make 8GB/256GB viable, or that they were for the M1 Air too? Because I had an M1 Air with 8GB of RAM for a while, and that thing was painful. I haven't had to be careful about how many tabs I had open in a browser for a long time--but I also haven't had 8GB of RAM in a long time, either.
  - sgarland 3y ago
    I’ve had my base M1 since a few months after launch, and the only slowdowns I’ve experienced are when I turn on low power mode. Even then, it’s more that apps are slow to launch, not that they’re unresponsive once open. I generally have between 4-10 tabs at any given time; how many do you have?

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> I didn't enjoy the process of looking through dozens of various lines that Dell has and then other companies like Lenovo and HP earlier in the process, just to find a "mid-range usable computer with a decent screen". Newegg's feature selector is pretty good at sorting through this. Just uncheck all the bad screen resolutions and CPU models and see what's left. Bonus: Require at least 32GB of memory in an exact power of two, excluding all the junk that solders 8GB to the system board.

paulmd 3y ago
It is perfectly possible to have dual-channel 12+12GB configurations and also unbalanced 8+24GB configurations, so your test is not really accurate.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  12+12GB doesn't result in a power of 2. 8+24GB does, but there are no 24GB DDR4 SODIMMs to make it with, so that's only possible with DDR5. Moreover, even though that is possible, you can then look at the specs to confirm that it isn't the case, having already filtered out all of the junk where it clearly is the case, e.g. when the machine has 40GB.

michaelt 3y ago

> it boggles my mind how most other companies (maybe Framework is an except) still have dozens or even 100s of SKUs for consumer laptops And the crazy thing is, despite Dell having 170+ laptop SKUs they don't use that fact to actually have a wide range of products. You'd think with 170 different SKUs they could produce an ultrabook with ports, wouldn't you? A modernised version of the E7270? Apparently not, though.

yodsanklai 3y ago

This will sound slightly provocative but I genuinely wonder: why would anyone buy anything else than an apple laptop? Gaming? ideology? budget constraints? lack of familiarity with MacOS? They are marginally more expensive, but they also very easy to sell second-hand. I'm speculating that the monthly cost is on par with a PC.

harkinian 3y ago
If you need Windows programs for your work, or need the ports, or want to play games, that kinda answers the question. The Mac laptops are otherwise just better for most people. And the often-repeated "every user is different" is not really true; most people fit the mold.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  >most people fit the mold. Which mould though? I'd say most fit the Windows mould, but I'm guessing you mean the Apple mould.
  - harkinian 3y ago
    I mean that most people who buy laptops fit the mold of needing web browsing, email, documents, and maybe file management. They can solve that with Windows, Mac, or maybe even Chromebook. There isn't usually a reason they need one in particular, the Mac just tends to be the nicest option, or the Chromebook if you're on a tight budget.
Dah00n 3y ago
Lots of people doesn't see Apple laptops like you obviously do. Ask provocative questions and you'll get likewise answers. For my needs and my opinions: - The software is worse. Linux is better. Windows has much broader options. I run both. - I game. - Ideology? Yes, Apple is an awful company. - Familiarity? I have used it enough to know it cannot do a lot of things I need, want, like, etc. - Budget? Yes, but not because it is too expensive, but because it cannot do anywhere near what Linux and Windows can do (for me) for way less. >I'm speculating that the monthly cost is on par with a PC. What is the monthly cost of a Mac that can run games, run old software I require for work and hobbies and (importantly) isn't locked down in either hardware or software so I can use it for something completely different later in life?

precompute 3y ago

Ah. Apple fanboys and their partly-usable, overpriced laptops with notches. You have to buy ONCE, it's not like you have to worry about what other laptop you could've bought every single time you use one. Do the research, buy a $600 laptop. It's usually adequate for everything except gaming.

varispeed 3y ago

Is your system your enemy? Serious question. Having suffered through many Dell laptops (flagships) I'd rather flush the money down the pan than buy one machine from them. What Dell is selling in comparison to Apple is legacy technology with shoddy workmanship.

numbers 3y ago
my sister needed a laptop that runs windows so dell was one of the many options

freeAgent 3y ago

If a normal person just wants a “simple laptop,” they can go to Best Buy or whatever brick and mortar and pull one off the shelf. They don’t need to dig into hundreds of SKUs unless they want to do so.

harkinian 3y ago
BestBuy will still have a ton of different options that look similar but one is inexplicably a lot more expensive than another, even within the same brand.

rmbyrro 3y ago

The only non-user friendly defaults in the Mac purchasing flow are the 8G RAM and 256G SSD. I think in 2024, 16G & 512G should be the default, with an option to downgrade. With such bloated webapps now a days, those 8G of RAM are going to cook too fast...

harywilke 3y ago

Really surprised not to see any mention of the 2x2 grid Jobs introduced in 1998: Pro, Consumer, Desktop, and Portable. It was the solution to exactly this problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cZg8pLmXk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cZg8pLmXk about 6 minutes in.

grow2grow 3y ago

They do it so that the consumer can't price match nor return swap from one retailer to another. The model number ultimately becomes a type of trace to reveal which retailer sold the device.

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sidkshatriya 3y ago

> I was recently buying a Dell laptop for my sister and it boggles my mind how most other companies (maybe Framework is an except) still have dozens or even 100s of SKUs for consumer laptops. If you remember back in the day, Nokia also had a crazy number of SKUs for their phones. Nokia is no longer the power it used to be. Could it mean many SKUS means a lack of focus ? Thinking you can out market / out segment your competition rather than try to concentrate more on the product ? I find AMD also has less SKUs than Intel. Here, as a challenger you can't really afford to segment the market as much as the leader. You need to concentrate your offerings in a few potent products.

kmeisthax 3y ago

Having 100s of SKUs is an information denial tactic to ensure that users forfeit all of their consumer surplus[0] and pay exactly what they are willing to pay in the hopes that they get a "good one". The problem with this tactic is that there's a lot of SKUs that give people a terrible experience and they jump to another brand. Apple's solution to this is to instead have 50 SKUs, organize them by a few very easily understandable categories, and then price every SKU exactly within $50-$75 of one another so that there's always a meaningful upgrade for slightly more money. This is also why Apple is very stingy with storage and RAM. They use the cost of upgrades to pull you to higher priced SKUs, which then need their own upgrades, and OH LOOK there's an even nicer base model for just a little more! [0] The amount of money you save when the thing you want to buy turns out to be cheaper than what you were willing to pay.

colmmacc 3y ago

I've always assumed that the number of SKUs is so that retailers can have a (relatively) unique model and avoid price comparisons. Like mattresses.