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> But you can also pay $400 for a number of acceptable alternatives, and about $600-$700 for a machine with a discrete GPU. People love to say this without lin
by samatman 3y ago
> But you can also pay $400 for a number of acceptable alternatives, and about $600-$700 for a machine with a discrete GPU.
People love to say this without linking to a model. That's because the models in this price range are obviously not in the same weight class as a MacBook.
Edit: Weight class and weight-of-laptop are not the same thing. I don't know how to explain the idiom "weight class" so that the more... literal-minded Hacker News commenters will understand what I mean, but let's start there.
- justinclift 3y agoPersonally, I'm ok with getting 2nd hand business grade models off Ebay. They're generally pretty good (and cheap). But a lot of people (especially the less technically inclined) will only buy brand new, which I think is for safety. Anyway, 2nd hand laptops on Ebay can be both really good and in that price range. :)
- gnicholas 3y agoI'm not sure it makes sense to compare new laptops with used laptops, especially since the latter generally don't come with any sort of warranty. And when you're buying off ebay (and can't inspect beforehand, like with craigslist/nextdoor), you don't even know for sure if it will work on day 1.
- justinclift 3y agoYeah, I'm kind of 50/50 about comparing them for the purposes of this conversation too. In practical terms though, when I'm looking for a new laptop I do check both pricing of new and what's on Ebay. Sometimes I'll go with the new thing, and other times I'll get the Ebay thing, depending on the situation.
- bombcar 3y agoI always keep an eye on those, but certified refurbished from manufacturers (whether Apple or Dell or HP, etc) are really good deals, quite often, and a known quantity. I've no problem buying certified refurbished for work, whereas for home eBay off-lease is more acceptable because I know it's me dealing with issues if they crop up.
- gnicholas 3y agoYeah, I've bought refurb Apple devices from Apple, partly because they're always in pristine cosmetic condition, but mostly because you can buy AppleCare for them just as if they were new.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jwagenet 3y agoI think for the general public this is a reasonable comparison, since the performance is good enough for most things on a 2 year old eng pc for less than half the msrp. I would expect most corporate refurbs on eBay to be moderately reputable, and eBay is know to be consumer friendly.
- WesleyLivesay 3y agoShouldn't you then compare it to a 2 year old Air? They seem to be in the $600-$700 range on eBay.
- justinclift 3y agoProbably a good comparison point as well. :)
- bombcar 3y agoYou can get a refurbished Air direct from Apple for $749. Cheaper from other places online.
- gnicholas 3y agoI would consider buying a used computer from a person, if I could test it in advance. I don't think I'd ever buy a computer sight-unseen off ebay. They may be customer friendly on balance, but they're unpredictable enough that I wouldn't want to spend that kind of cash and risk being completely screwed.
- samatman 3y ago> not sure it makes sense to compare new laptops with used laptops It of course makes no sense at all. For any given laptop, you can also buy it used. Including MacBooks, believe it or not. It's a way of puffing up a comparison when the person making it knows the comparison doesn't stand on its own.
- rfoo 3y ago> same weight class as a MacBook Except that there are plenty? As long as you avoid Dell it's easy to find a good deal. Oh, and I prefer plastic. Aluminum adds weight for nothing.
- michaelcampbell 3y ago> not in the same weight class as a MacBook Which might not be a consideration whatsoever. It isn't for me; I bring my laptop to the office, or from the office, and am never using it where weight makes one bit of difference.
- theultdev 3y agoSpeaking for myself, weight and battery life are the two most important factors for a portable. I mainly use a desktop if I'm at home or the office. I only use a laptop occasionally in bed or heavily when traveling.
- n42 3y ago“Weight class” as in “League”, not weight
- BHSPitMonkey 3y agoCommuting to/from an office is usually a prime example of when a laptop's weight would matter.
- dividedbyzero 3y agoCommutes can be very different, too. Someone who walks and uses public transport will feel differently about the weight of their laptop than someone who just has to lug theirs to their car and across the parking lot. Same with travel: Flying with just a carry-on bag and crossing big airports on foot makes lightweight laptops a lot more attractive.
- michaelcampbell 3y agoAgain, not for me. I throw it in a backpack and because I'm in the US without good public transport, the distance I carry it is precisely from my house to my car (25'), then from the parking garage to the office. I "carry" it maybe a total of 3 minutes. The weight is literally not an issue for me. I get it can be for others, but not EVERYONE.
- silisili 3y agoAre we talking weight class as in weight or performance? I find the Acer Chromebook Spin 714 'in the weight class' with about the same weight, but with a less performant CPU and not as high res screen. It's also 8/256, has good battery life, and is fine for a lot of workloads. It can be had for $400ish factory recertified, or 100-200 more new brand new depending on sales. Keep in mind I'm not saying that the two go toe to toe here, I'm just listing a lightweight alternative.
- NotSammyHagar 3y agoThis is an excellent laptop, I've found it to be great. Plenty of people can't stand chromeos, but you can run linux in vm mode, I find the ability to have a safe env but run any x / linux apps natively makes for a very compelling combo. You can run emacs, any x-windows software like dev tools natively. I also like the ability to run android apps - with the limitation that some app disallow running them unless they are on a 'native' phone; over time it seems more and more mainstream apps allow this.
- silisili 3y agoYep same. I wanted a cheap decent laptop for when I'm traveling, which isn't often, so didn't want or need best of the best. It dawned on me I spend about all my time on the web, in vs code, or on the command line. With their Linux VM setup I can install about anything, and it both installs and runs as if it were a native app. Perfect for my use case, at least. I'm not a huge fan of the ChromeOS UI and whatnot, but spend very little time interacting with it or Gnome on my main machine, so it's fine enough.
- wfhBrian 3y agoThe other issue with linking is that the "best" in the windows market is that it's heavily dependent on current promotions. It's easy to find windows laptops discounted >20% which really throws off the direct comparisons at retail prices.
- HumblyTossed 3y agoLenovo Ideapad 5 Pro 14" 14ACN6. Got one at Costco over a year ago for around $700US. Runs Pop_OS! really well. Weight is very much light enough for me. Edit: There is one downside I found. I replaced the 512GB SSD with 1TB and nearly needed stitches because the bottom plate was so sharp. Oh and I just looked it up, it's listed at 3.04lbs
- moolcool 3y agoA big factor is how these machines age too, though. 4 years ago the 2020 M1 Macbook Air dropped, and it's still a fantastic computer today. On the other hand, I don't think I would enjoy using a 4 year old Lenovo Ideapad today
- HumblyTossed 3y agoWhy not? It benchmarks really good: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+5+5600U&id=4284 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Ryzen+5+5600U&i... Here's the M1: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Apple+M1+8+Core+3200+MHz&id=4104 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Apple+M1+8+Core+320...
- moolcool 3y agoI'm just thinking more in terms of hardware. Trackpad, keyboard, display, hinges, ports, support, battery life-- all of those (in my experience) tend to either be poor out of the box or decay rapidly for many machines. I've used an "enterprise" HP laptop that's just a couple years old recently-- the battery is totally cooked and it feels like it's made out of takeout containers.
- HumblyTossed 3y agoI'm a year and a half in and everything is running smooth. I still get a full workday out of the battery - and that's using Linux. That's plenty for me. It opens smooth. The keyboard is good - no deck flex. The screen is fine - even at only 300nits I don't need it brighter as I don't work in bright areas. I really really don't see how this won't last another 2 and half years or even more.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago>That's because the models in this price range are obviously not in the same weight class as a MacBook. Hard to be when other oems need to profit from hardware and pay windows/Intel/Nvidia/etc. For using their parts. But the upside is that those companies want to make repairs/upgrades easy for themselves, which in turn makes them easy for the saavy consumer to do. Apple just metaphorically throws out a MacBook at the slightest inconvenience, they don't even bother trying to fix their own devices.
- dividedbyzero 3y ago> But the upside is that those companies want to make repairs/upgrades easy for themselves, which in turn makes them easy for the saavy consumer to do. Do they? At least for the slimmer models, I was under the impression most have copied Apple and transitioned to soldering and gluing everything into an unserviceable mess.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago>I was under the impression most have copied Apple and transitioned to soldering and gluing everything into an unserviceable mess ultrabooks, yes. everything is so crammed and specs are relatively low, so you're mostly stuck with what comes in the machine. Most other laptops (the "pro" competitors) tend to not do that. There's no good reason for an OEM to do that if they aren't optimizing for some sub 4lb laptop.
- bombcar 3y agoIt's part of the reason Apple has so few SKUs compared to others, because everything is conjoined; Dell will have five SKUs that are identical except two removable pieces (RAM and SSD) are varying sizes.
- janalsncm 3y ago> I don't know how to explain the idiom "weight class" I think “class” is the term you’re looking for. Or ballpark.
- Our_Benefactors 3y agoThe term you’re looking for is “caliber”, since many will interpret “weight class” to mean the actual weight of the laptop.
- ecopoesis 3y ago> “caliber” What are you talking about? Laptops aren't even round.</literal>
- paulmd 3y agoalso, there isn’t even a barrel let alone any sort of rifling? So how could we conceivably measure laptops in terms of barrel length if there’s no diameter or length? I just don’t see the metaphor here /s
- bowsamic 3y ago> Edit: Weight class and weight-of-laptop are not the same thing. I don't know how to explain the idiom "weight class" so that the more... literal-minded Hacker News commenters will understand what I mean, but let's start there. Just don't ever use a metaphor on Hacker News. People will always misinterpret it
- dividedbyzero 3y ago> Just don't ever use a metaphor on Hacker News. People will always misinterpret it I've always wondered why that is. No other community I'm active in insists so much on explicitly spelling out everything and very literal language – most will actually reward playing with language, if done well. Writing as if targeting Commander Data seems to work quite well though.
- bowsamic 3y agoThis might come off as projection, but in my experience, HN has a lot of people who pride themselves on their rationality, and part of this is giving off the image of never joking and always being serious. You can see this when people get mass downvoted for making jokes, which is also uncommon in other programming communities. Somehow this often spills over into metaphors as well as jokes. I think that jokes and metaphors are quite similar in that regard, both not to be taken totally seriously and/or literally. The HN insistence of being above jokes inevitably leads to being above metaphors.
- e63f67dd-065b 3y agoTech is known for being international, and even in the US is staffed with a lot of foreign-born labour. I don't find it surprising that a community with a high amount of non-native speakers sometimes misinterprets metaphors.
- silisili 3y agoIt's just not a good metaphor in this case, where weight is an actual determining factor. In boxing, weight class is literally your weight, saying nothing of your power. League or class would have probably been better here.
- switch007 3y ago> People love to say this without linking to a model Because they all have a crap screens (1920x1080) and bad battery life and we would point it out lol