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Your framing is disingenuous by trying to frame this as an uneconomic and non-rational fanboying. I don't think you truly appreciate how comfortable I am handi

Your framing is disingenuous by trying to frame this as an uneconomic and non-rational fanboying. I don't think you truly appreciate how comfortable I am handing my parents an iPhone, and how uncomfortable I was helping them with their Windows computer replete with multiple spyware browser toolbars back in the day. The onslaught of quasi malware on their computers was sickening, and they'd always ask me about insane popups that would show up due to some pre-installed thing nobody had control over.

realusername 3y ago
Like the appstore is any better, remember that the vast majority of money made on the appstore is for casino-like apps which I would not be comfortable giving to my parents or my family.
- laborcontract 3y ago
  Casino apps werent pre-installed. Do you really not remember what Windows computers were like, fresh out of the box, back in the day? Hardware companies pre-installed any and all sorts of software from vendors. Spyware, adware, gambling games, toolbars, "free" trials to internet services. Computers used to be up to their neck in absolute garbage.
  - realusername 3y ago
    I do, people installed those malware by clicking on random ads, about the same way they now install those undesirable apps, funny how history kind of repeats itself. I guess the biggest difference is that the OS manufacturer now gets a cut on those.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      And yet for some reason my dad never has any malware on his iOS and iPadOS devices, whereas he always did on Windows devices.
      - realusername 3y ago
        Since you talk about this subject, I actually had to remove two calendar malware on two different family iPhones (and it was pretty annoying to find where to remove that, even as a dev) so while it's true that there's less malware, it's not non-existent. And my point still stands anyways, the line between some of those top appstore casino-apps and malware is very blurry.
    - radlad 3y ago
      They also came preloaded by manufacturers like Compaq, HP, and Gateway, who got a kickback.
- ben_w 3y ago
  "Better" != "Good enough" An app store (any app store, not just Apple's) can be the former without being the latter.
- beeboobaa 3y ago
  > remember that the vast majority of money made on the appstore is for casino-like apps which I would not be comfortable giving to my parents or my family. Talk to your lawmakers to make these sort of apps illegal. Apple is not the government.
  - realusername 3y ago
    I never said that they were, I'm just deconstructing the marketing myth that the appstore is a wonderful safe place of productivity apps.
rbetts 3y ago
Exactly. You gain a visceral appreciation for this when you watch your elderly parents get scammed for tens of thousands of dollars and taken of advantage of via technology channels. We've created a very nasty internet - one that isn't safe for the old or the young - and without the law enforcement or age boundaries that we use in the physical world to keep our public spaces suitable for the broader population.
beeboobaa 3y ago
Stop infantilizing adults. Teach them computer safety.
- jimbokun 3y ago
  The young and the old can have cognitive impairments making this very difficult.
  - beeboobaa 3y ago
    Would you give them a gun or a knife? Do you think no one should be allowed to own a gun or a knife?
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Cars have seatbelts, airbags, ABS, crumple zones, etc. Almost everybody has to use a computer for work and other stuff, and they are willing to pay for a safe and sound system. They are not interested in becoming full time Arch Linux root administrators just to conduct their daily business on their device. Just like almost none of the people who drive a car are full time mechanics and welders.
  - piva00 3y ago
    > They are not interested in becoming full time Arch Linux root administrators just to conduct their daily business on their device. They don't need to if they don't want to. I'd be one of the users who are not inclined to transform my iPhone back into my days using Linux on desktop and suffering the pains of doing it. I do have the option to turn my computer into that if I want, I do not have that option for my phone even though it's just a computer. No one would be forcing users into doing that, it's about allowing the users who want that control over their own devices. You are attacking a strawman.
    - laborcontract 3y ago
      At what point should a private company be compelled to develop or expose APIs because you want to tinker around with their system?
_gabe_ 3y ago
My dad had installed a QR code reader app on his iPhone that was a monthly paid subscription. He was wasting hundreds of dollars every year for something his phone already did automatically for free by just opening the camera. Apple will happily let scammers create garbage paid apps to do the same thing their phones already do for free. No side-loading to let viruses in required.
- laborcontract 3y ago
  He can also ping apple's support to get a refund on that subscription, which they will happily do.
  - _gabe_ 3y ago
    Why should a refund even be necessary? What’s the point of Apple’s highly selective review process if they let apps like this through? The only reason that I can fathom is it’s because Apple will gladly take a 30% cut of that revenue. And that is my overall point here. Everybody always jumps to Apple’s defense by explaining how iPhones are built for inept users that just want a phone that works with no BS. Therefore, they claim, it’s a good thing that Apple has a highly locked down environment. But what good is this locked down environment if Apple will happily allow scam apps to charge their customers for features the phone already does for free? What’s the difference between a user downloading a scam app from an untrusted source and downloading it directly from the App Store? If Apple is going to have a locked down environment, at the very least, they should make it effective.
    - laborcontract 3y ago
      No ex-ante process will remove scams from the app store and I think you're bordering on arguing in bad faith. That's why the ex-post ease of refund part matters.

realusername 3y ago

Like the appstore is any better, remember that the vast majority of money made on the appstore is for casino-like apps which I would not be comfortable giving to my parents or my family.

laborcontract 3y ago
Casino apps werent pre-installed. Do you really not remember what Windows computers were like, fresh out of the box, back in the day? Hardware companies pre-installed any and all sorts of software from vendors. Spyware, adware, gambling games, toolbars, "free" trials to internet services. Computers used to be up to their neck in absolute garbage.
- realusername 3y ago
  I do, people installed those malware by clicking on random ads, about the same way they now install those undesirable apps, funny how history kind of repeats itself. I guess the biggest difference is that the OS manufacturer now gets a cut on those.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    And yet for some reason my dad never has any malware on his iOS and iPadOS devices, whereas he always did on Windows devices.
    - realusername 3y ago
      Since you talk about this subject, I actually had to remove two calendar malware on two different family iPhones (and it was pretty annoying to find where to remove that, even as a dev) so while it's true that there's less malware, it's not non-existent. And my point still stands anyways, the line between some of those top appstore casino-apps and malware is very blurry.
  - radlad 3y ago
    They also came preloaded by manufacturers like Compaq, HP, and Gateway, who got a kickback.
ben_w 3y ago
"Better" != "Good enough" An app store (any app store, not just Apple's) can be the former without being the latter.
beeboobaa 3y ago
> remember that the vast majority of money made on the appstore is for casino-like apps which I would not be comfortable giving to my parents or my family. Talk to your lawmakers to make these sort of apps illegal. Apple is not the government.
- realusername 3y ago
  I never said that they were, I'm just deconstructing the marketing myth that the appstore is a wonderful safe place of productivity apps.

rbetts 3y ago

Exactly. You gain a visceral appreciation for this when you watch your elderly parents get scammed for tens of thousands of dollars and taken of advantage of via technology channels. We've created a very nasty internet - one that isn't safe for the old or the young - and without the law enforcement or age boundaries that we use in the physical world to keep our public spaces suitable for the broader population.

beeboobaa 3y ago

Stop infantilizing adults. Teach them computer safety.

jimbokun 3y ago
The young and the old can have cognitive impairments making this very difficult.
- beeboobaa 3y ago
  Would you give them a gun or a knife? Do you think no one should be allowed to own a gun or a knife?
carlosjobim 3y ago
Cars have seatbelts, airbags, ABS, crumple zones, etc. Almost everybody has to use a computer for work and other stuff, and they are willing to pay for a safe and sound system. They are not interested in becoming full time Arch Linux root administrators just to conduct their daily business on their device. Just like almost none of the people who drive a car are full time mechanics and welders.
- piva00 3y ago
  > They are not interested in becoming full time Arch Linux root administrators just to conduct their daily business on their device. They don't need to if they don't want to. I'd be one of the users who are not inclined to transform my iPhone back into my days using Linux on desktop and suffering the pains of doing it. I do have the option to turn my computer into that if I want, I do not have that option for my phone even though it's just a computer. No one would be forcing users into doing that, it's about allowing the users who want that control over their own devices. You are attacking a strawman.
  - laborcontract 3y ago
    At what point should a private company be compelled to develop or expose APIs because you want to tinker around with their system?

_gabe_ 3y ago

My dad had installed a QR code reader app on his iPhone that was a monthly paid subscription. He was wasting hundreds of dollars every year for something his phone already did automatically for free by just opening the camera. Apple will happily let scammers create garbage paid apps to do the same thing their phones already do for free. No side-loading to let viruses in required.

laborcontract 3y ago
He can also ping apple's support to get a refund on that subscription, which they will happily do.
- _gabe_ 3y ago
  Why should a refund even be necessary? What’s the point of Apple’s highly selective review process if they let apps like this through? The only reason that I can fathom is it’s because Apple will gladly take a 30% cut of that revenue. And that is my overall point here. Everybody always jumps to Apple’s defense by explaining how iPhones are built for inept users that just want a phone that works with no BS. Therefore, they claim, it’s a good thing that Apple has a highly locked down environment. But what good is this locked down environment if Apple will happily allow scam apps to charge their customers for features the phone already does for free? What’s the difference between a user downloading a scam app from an untrusted source and downloading it directly from the App Store? If Apple is going to have a locked down environment, at the very least, they should make it effective.
  - laborcontract 3y ago
    No ex-ante process will remove scams from the app store and I think you're bordering on arguing in bad faith. That's why the ex-post ease of refund part matters.