6 ms·

Film Companies Seek 'Torrenting History' Related to Redditor

75 points by gslin 3y ago

Log_out_ 3y ago
This is what some collected info is. A hidden debt history on IP violations - and it's priced into the whole machinery. But if they sell it out en gross, and start collecting, then the "ignore privacy" jig is up.
Eisenstein 3y ago
1. All written communications with RCN concerning piracy from Oct. 1, 2017 to the present. 2. Payment records to RCN from Oct. 1, 2017 to present. 3. All personal computing records pertaining to usage of BitTorrent from Oct. 1, 2017 to the present. 4. All social media account usernames used including for Reddit, Twitter and Facebook January 1, 2016 to present. 5. All Reddit posts and messages from Jan. 1, 2016 to the present 6. Records of all movie piracy websites (including but not limited to YTS, 1337x, RARBG, Torrent Galaxy, The PirateBay) that were used at your Internet service. --- How do they expect anyone to say yes to those requests? They don't have power of discovery over some person not directly involved in their lawsuit, so are they just hoping that this person not only will comply but actually has any of this data? It seems Mr. S is stonewalling them and I'm not sure what they can do about it, even with a subpoena. Any lawyers want to answer what the recourse is for someone who is just ignoring your requests?
- defrost 3y ago
  Exert more imaginary pressure in the hope that they run scared and fold. That said I'm inclined to believe that "Person S", the redditor, is not their target. I'm inclined to think that RCN is the target, with deeper pockets, and they intend to prove that RCN facilitated many subscribers by "allowing" torrenting. The merits of that case aside, the strategy would be to scare the pants off of RCN and perhaps get them to settle for fear that some subscribers or many will fold and deliver up correspondence that shows repeated warnings about torrenting with no actual action by RCN taken. This is about US clients and the US ISP company RCN. Australia has this already solved, there was a High Court case Hollywood et al Vs. IINET that came down solidly on the side of the ISP companu not having to monitor their subscribers torrenting activity, nor having to pass on customer personal data in response to requests based on IP addresses and ISP logs.
  - close04 3y ago
    > I'm inclined to beleive that "Person S", the redditor, is not their target. I think they're looking to set a precedent on leveraging a random person to obtain evidence usable against a big target. Once any customer can be leveraged against the ISP, the ISP will do the heavy lifting of of the hammer against such customers.
  - 15457345234 3y ago
    > Exert more imaginary pressure in the hope that they run scared and fold. Uh, if you ignore a legally issued subpoena you end up with an arrest warrant and are usually quite promptly arrested. If that subpoena obliges you to hand over equipment and records those records and equipment are forcibly seized in the process. Sorry but 'the law has no teeth' isn't how things work. Subpoenas are, in fact, enforced. Routinely. That's what enables the justice system to work. I'm also pretty sure they want this 'person S' quite badly indeed and considering they want all their socials since Jan 1 2016 I'd imagine piracy is just the start of what they're looking for.
    - defrost 3y ago
      Reddit, reportedly, did not comply with three subpoena's in a row: Reddit wasn’t willing to go along with the request, at least not in full. The company objected, arguing that handing over the requested information would violate its users’ right to anonymous speech. Reddit later responded similarly to a second and third subpoena request. It helps to have lawyers object to subpoenas. As for Mr S. he can be compelled to respond to the subpoena for: 1. All written communications with RCN concerning piracy from Oct. 1, 2017 to the present. etc. by truthfully (?) stating that he no longer has these records. > I'm also pretty sure they want this 'person S' quite badly indeed To leverage them, quite possibly for immunity should they be able to make anything stick aside from an elaborate online fantasy life cosplaying as a pirate .. or not .. maybe. Absolutely. I'd still argue that the main target here is bigger fish with deeper pockets - scare an ISP out of being casual wrt pirating, send a message to more ISP's, etc.
      - 15457345234 3y ago
- h4ch1 3y ago
  A very naive idea but why can't people just delete their data, put their drives in the washing machine and just hand over the computer and be like whoops it's broken? If ever I'm the subject of a lawsuit that'd require me to turn in my computer, I'd scrub it to oblivion at the slightest intimation of what's happening.
  - graemep 3y ago
    Because that is illegal and the courts will be very sceptical about your claim that your drive just happened to break at such a convenient time.
    - h4ch1 3y ago
      not a lawyer, but how is it illegal if I do it before I am served with any sort of orders for discovery? I can just wipe my desktop, in a perfectly usable state, with some random applications installed.
      - graemep 3y ago
        It looks like it can be: "a number of courts have issued rulings imposing a duty to preserve before litigation begins if a party knows of the existence of a potential claim and can identify relevant evidence." https://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/delete-at-your-peril-preserving-electronic-evidence-during-the.html https://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/delete-at-...
        pests 3y ago
        Existence of a possible claim. Isnt that always possible, for everyone, always, for any action?
        h4ch1 3y ago
        yeah that's what I am confused about, sounds like a gray area, I don't know if me doing something I know is legal could set me up for lawsuits a year down the line so am I supposed to hoard data in the wait of being sued someday lest my data maintenance tic be used against me? If I know I am doing something illegal then yeah the case against me could be stronger, but what about people who don't
3D30497420 3y ago
> The plaintiffs have always maintained that they don’t intend to pursue legal action against the targeted Redditors. Ok, sure. But wouldn't admitting to downloading movies off BitTorrent open them up to legal action from other parties? In other words, if you downloaded a Sony movie, couldn't they bring a case?
- cainxinth 3y ago
  “We didn’t originally intend to sue, but then we saw their torrent history and our intentions changed.”
- add-sub-mul-div 3y ago
  At the start of the piracy era the media companies went after individuals, but through some combination of bad PR and bad ROI that was abandoned long ago and they changed their strategy to get ISPs held accountable.
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
Can’t imagine enough people are torrenting these days to make the lawyer fees worthwhile spending for this.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  Private trackers are alive and well, and demand is if anything increasing as media companies make the same mistakes all over again.
- suddenclarity 3y ago
  Tears of the Kingdom had over one million public downloads even before its official release last year. It's probably less common than it used to be (especially for music) but it's still widespread. I think the biggest change is that people at the bottom have moved on to iptv or paying for shared Plex accounts instead of doing the downloading themselves. The chain is still dependent on torrenting though.
  - crtasm 3y ago
    Where is the 1M downloads stat from? I'd have imagined most people are using direct download sites to get such content. edit: looking at Nintendo's complaint against Yuzu, it doesn't mention bittorrent or explain how they arrived at that number.
- Alifatisk 3y ago
  I think the daily stats might surprise you https://iknowwhatyoudownload.com/en/stat/daily https://iknowwhatyoudownload.com/en/stat/daily
- epanchin 3y ago
  It makes sense for it to be on the rise, the legit landscape now is dire. There are too many platforms to stream or purchase from. If you want to pay it’s difficult. I understand torrenting offers one easy and convenient search, no ads, can download in advance of a journey, no country lock, no expiring downloads, no series disappearing off Netflix half way through watching.
_chu1 3y ago
Who is allowing "filmmakers" to send a death squad after someone and try to request information they'll never get access to over not even actually pirating something but just talking about it?

75 points by gslin 3y ago

This is what some collected info is. A hidden debt history on IP violations - and it's priced into the whole machinery. But if they sell it out en gross, and start collecting, then the "ignore privacy" jig is up.

Eisenstein 3y ago

1. All written communications with RCN concerning piracy from Oct. 1, 2017 to the present. 2. Payment records to RCN from Oct. 1, 2017 to present. 3. All personal computing records pertaining to usage of BitTorrent from Oct. 1, 2017 to the present. 4. All social media account usernames used including for Reddit, Twitter and Facebook January 1, 2016 to present. 5. All Reddit posts and messages from Jan. 1, 2016 to the present 6. Records of all movie piracy websites (including but not limited to YTS, 1337x, RARBG, Torrent Galaxy, The PirateBay) that were used at your Internet service. --- How do they expect anyone to say yes to those requests? They don't have power of discovery over some person not directly involved in their lawsuit, so are they just hoping that this person not only will comply but actually has any of this data? It seems Mr. S is stonewalling them and I'm not sure what they can do about it, even with a subpoena. Any lawyers want to answer what the recourse is for someone who is just ignoring your requests?

defrost 3y ago
Exert more imaginary pressure in the hope that they run scared and fold. That said I'm inclined to believe that "Person S", the redditor, is not their target. I'm inclined to think that RCN is the target, with deeper pockets, and they intend to prove that RCN facilitated many subscribers by "allowing" torrenting. The merits of that case aside, the strategy would be to scare the pants off of RCN and perhaps get them to settle for fear that some subscribers or many will fold and deliver up correspondence that shows repeated warnings about torrenting with no actual action by RCN taken. This is about US clients and the US ISP company RCN. Australia has this already solved, there was a High Court case Hollywood et al Vs. IINET that came down solidly on the side of the ISP companu not having to monitor their subscribers torrenting activity, nor having to pass on customer personal data in response to requests based on IP addresses and ISP logs.
- close04 3y ago
  > I'm inclined to beleive that "Person S", the redditor, is not their target. I think they're looking to set a precedent on leveraging a random person to obtain evidence usable against a big target. Once any customer can be leveraged against the ISP, the ISP will do the heavy lifting of of the hammer against such customers.
- 15457345234 3y ago
  > Exert more imaginary pressure in the hope that they run scared and fold. Uh, if you ignore a legally issued subpoena you end up with an arrest warrant and are usually quite promptly arrested. If that subpoena obliges you to hand over equipment and records those records and equipment are forcibly seized in the process. Sorry but 'the law has no teeth' isn't how things work. Subpoenas are, in fact, enforced. Routinely. That's what enables the justice system to work. I'm also pretty sure they want this 'person S' quite badly indeed and considering they want all their socials since Jan 1 2016 I'd imagine piracy is just the start of what they're looking for.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Reddit, reportedly, did not comply with three subpoena's in a row: Reddit wasn’t willing to go along with the request, at least not in full. The company objected, arguing that handing over the requested information would violate its users’ right to anonymous speech. Reddit later responded similarly to a second and third subpoena request. It helps to have lawyers object to subpoenas. As for Mr S. he can be compelled to respond to the subpoena for: 1. All written communications with RCN concerning piracy from Oct. 1, 2017 to the present. etc. by truthfully (?) stating that he no longer has these records. > I'm also pretty sure they want this 'person S' quite badly indeed To leverage them, quite possibly for immunity should they be able to make anything stick aside from an elaborate online fantasy life cosplaying as a pirate .. or not .. maybe. Absolutely. I'd still argue that the main target here is bigger fish with deeper pockets - scare an ISP out of being casual wrt pirating, send a message to more ISP's, etc.
    - 15457345234 3y ago
h4ch1 3y ago
A very naive idea but why can't people just delete their data, put their drives in the washing machine and just hand over the computer and be like whoops it's broken? If ever I'm the subject of a lawsuit that'd require me to turn in my computer, I'd scrub it to oblivion at the slightest intimation of what's happening.
- graemep 3y ago
  Because that is illegal and the courts will be very sceptical about your claim that your drive just happened to break at such a convenient time.
  - h4ch1 3y ago
    not a lawyer, but how is it illegal if I do it before I am served with any sort of orders for discovery? I can just wipe my desktop, in a perfectly usable state, with some random applications installed.
    - graemep 3y ago
      It looks like it can be: "a number of courts have issued rulings imposing a duty to preserve before litigation begins if a party knows of the existence of a potential claim and can identify relevant evidence." https://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/delete-at-your-peril-preserving-electronic-evidence-during-the.html https://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/delete-at-...
      - pests 3y ago
        Existence of a possible claim. Isnt that always possible, for everyone, always, for any action?
        h4ch1 3y ago
        yeah that's what I am confused about, sounds like a gray area, I don't know if me doing something I know is legal could set me up for lawsuits a year down the line so am I supposed to hoard data in the wait of being sued someday lest my data maintenance tic be used against me? If I know I am doing something illegal then yeah the case against me could be stronger, but what about people who don't

3D30497420 3y ago

> The plaintiffs have always maintained that they don’t intend to pursue legal action against the targeted Redditors. Ok, sure. But wouldn't admitting to downloading movies off BitTorrent open them up to legal action from other parties? In other words, if you downloaded a Sony movie, couldn't they bring a case?

cainxinth 3y ago
“We didn’t originally intend to sue, but then we saw their torrent history and our intentions changed.”
add-sub-mul-div 3y ago
At the start of the piracy era the media companies went after individuals, but through some combination of bad PR and bad ROI that was abandoned long ago and they changed their strategy to get ISPs held accountable.

whywhywhywhy 3y ago

Can’t imagine enough people are torrenting these days to make the lawyer fees worthwhile spending for this.

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
Private trackers are alive and well, and demand is if anything increasing as media companies make the same mistakes all over again.
suddenclarity 3y ago
Tears of the Kingdom had over one million public downloads even before its official release last year. It's probably less common than it used to be (especially for music) but it's still widespread. I think the biggest change is that people at the bottom have moved on to iptv or paying for shared Plex accounts instead of doing the downloading themselves. The chain is still dependent on torrenting though.
- crtasm 3y ago
  Where is the 1M downloads stat from? I'd have imagined most people are using direct download sites to get such content. edit: looking at Nintendo's complaint against Yuzu, it doesn't mention bittorrent or explain how they arrived at that number.
Alifatisk 3y ago
I think the daily stats might surprise you https://iknowwhatyoudownload.com/en/stat/daily https://iknowwhatyoudownload.com/en/stat/daily
epanchin 3y ago
It makes sense for it to be on the rise, the legit landscape now is dire. There are too many platforms to stream or purchase from. If you want to pay it’s difficult. I understand torrenting offers one easy and convenient search, no ads, can download in advance of a journey, no country lock, no expiring downloads, no series disappearing off Netflix half way through watching.

_chu1 3y ago

Who is allowing "filmmakers" to send a death squad after someone and try to request information they'll never get access to over not even actually pirating something but just talking about it?