5 ms·

Would be nice if we could just recognize Taiwan as an independent country. I realize there are good reasons not to do so right now -- RoC itself still says on

Would be nice if we could just recognize Taiwan as an independent country. I realize there are good reasons not to do so right now -- RoC itself still says on paper they own all of China, and the West is still too dependent on Chinese manufacturing -- but it would be good to move towards recognizing reality.

samus 3y ago
The RoC releasing its claim on the rest of China would be a de-facto declaration of independence as well since it wound cease to be the rump state of the country founded in 1912 and become something else.
- sfmike 3y ago
  do they still claim this? is this official? or old KMT rhetoric
  - throwaway2990 3y ago
    It’s written into their Constitution. Taiwan doesn’t care for China at all. Just wants to be left alone to live and continue to prosper.
    - sandspar 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - throwaway2990 3y ago
        Which is why they voted for the party that doesn’t want to merge with China. They saw what happened with Hong Kong. They don’t want that to happen to them.
  - samus 3y ago
    The constitution says so. However, it was amended in the early 90ties to acknowledge that the scope of the ROC government is presently limited to Taiwan and the outlying islands.
lmm 3y ago
I actually think this is a golden opportunity to recognise Taiwan. The PRC isn't ready to invade - Russia's performance has them doing some soul-searching, which will ultimately result in a stronger military, but right now they're on the back foot. The Chinese economy is struggling for various reasons and export restrictions are already in the air, making this a particularly bad time for them to start a trade war.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  Ceasing the moment can avoid so much pain later. We had time before NK originally got nukes to negotiate a deal with Deng era China which would have involved a two prong invasion and giving north korea up to become a Chinese puppet state. A Chinese puppet would be infinitely better than what they have going on right now, and the folks in south Korea would sleep much more soundly. I'm glad to see the US appearing to cease the moment similarly here.
  - dazilcher 3y ago
    "seize the moment"
    - Der_Einzige 3y ago
      Phone autocorrect got me! Carpe Diem
- iforgotpassword 3y ago
  Please, take a look at a map will you? Taiwan is tiny compared to the Ukraine, China could bomb the island into oblivion in a day. With all the problems China currently has, I have little faith they'd just sit there and do nothing if Taiwan declared independence. In fact this can easily be used to unite the population because you have an external problem, common enemy, and suddenly the economy tanking isn't that important anymore. It would be the end for Taiwan and suck hard for the rest of the world. And with the Russian invasion still going on at the same time, it could very well bring us another step closer to nukes being used. I just watched Dr. Strangelove again and it felt very different that time.
empath-nirvana 3y ago
I think as long as an invasion of Taiwan looks _difficult_, and the overwhelming likely hood that invading Taiwan will leave Taiwan a smoking crater, that is enough to keep China from invading it. China benefits tremendously economically from trading with Taiwan and they aren't going to throw that way over national pride, _as long as Taiwan doesn't declare independence_.
- novolunt 3y ago
  Taiwan benefits tremendously economically from trading with chinese Mainland(true data).
- sandspar 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    It would be like Russia bombing the Ukraine.
novolunt 3y ago
[dead]
seo-speedwagon 3y ago
You start out in 1972 by saying, "One China, One China." By 2016 you can't say "One China"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like “the close economic, political and security ties between Taiwan and the US” and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now that you're talking about permanent training missions, and all these things you're talking about are totally regional stability things and a byproduct of them is the PRC gets hurt worse than the KMT. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the Taiwan problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "these are the commitments we made" is much more abstract than even the training mission thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "One China"
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  XDDD
_tik_ 3y ago
Turning Taiwan into another Ukraine? After a few years, the U.S. might lose interest in Taiwan, and the Taiwanese would pay with their lives. Most Taiwanese just want to go on with their lives and maintain the status quo.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Getting crushed betweem super powers is a nightmare. Once the elite starts to align with one super power or the other rather than their constituents you are in for a very bad time.
- skmurphy 3y ago
  Permanently stationing US troops on Taiwan is a very different strategy from what the US did with Ukraine. It says we are willing to put our troops in harms way in the event of a Chinese attack on or invasion of Taiwan.
lenkite 3y ago
Seems the war-mongering attitude of American citizens is really high in today's world. Peace is spat upon and treated with contempt - planned coups/bombings/large number of non-american fatalities is far better! More bonuses for the C-suite executives (and main shareholders) of the American War Industry! Kindly recognize Palestine as a separate state according to United Nations Resolution 181, before you recognize Taiwan and kick-start yet another war.
- Paradigma11 3y ago
  The war would start if China starts an invasion and not before. That is completely on China.
  - lenkite 3y ago
    No, its not. The U.S. cannot abrogate responsibility. Taiwan is not recognized by the U.N. If the U.S. declares Taiwan as a free, independent nation when the Chinese have an explicitly declared, stated political claim since independence and the U.S. has left the matter as "strategically ambiguous" for decades, then such a deliberate change in position along with active militarization of Taiwan simply begs for Chinese intervention. The U.S. has started bombing campaigns for less reasons when organizations whose existence it has objected to have become armed. So the sanctimonious hypocrisy of baiting someone then claiming foul when the other responds won't really work here. The U.S. media will of-course fully blame China with 24x7 "evil china" campaigns. The non-NATO world will just shake their heads.
    - samus 3y ago
      Taiwan is the rump state of the ROC, which admittedly survived so far because of US influence. But Taiwan is also not recognized by most states as a country because of China flexing its diplomatic and economic muscles. Many countries also just don't like the West. The current status quo is quite confusing, but has resulted in economic prosperity on both sides of the straits and mutual economic dependency of China and the West. There is little to gain and a whole lot to lose for all involved parties.
Paradigma11 3y ago
I read that China would interpret such an action as a declaration of independence and threatens with invasion in case Taiwan does so. Similarly to how China threatened Hongkong if there had been any democratic reforms by the British. That does not hinder China apologists now from bringing up the lack of democracy under british rule.
TMWNN 3y ago
>Would be nice if we could just recognize Taiwan as an independent country. Trump, as president-elect in late 2016, took a congratulatory phone call from Taiwan's president, something that had never happened before since normalization of US-China relations. I suspect that a second Trump administration will see him visit Taiwan, and restoration of formal diplomatic relations as opposed to the current "American Institute in Taiwan". I hope Trump goes further and explicitly encourages Taiwan to build nuclear weapons. Had the US not twice squelched Taiwanese efforts in the 1960s and 1970s, East Asia would be a much, much calmer place today.
- samus 3y ago
  Nuclear non-proliferation has been a remarkably common policy across most of the world. MAD itself is already insane, but even more so is encouraging more countries to develop nuclear weapons themselves. Taiwan was pressured to give up their nuclear program for the simple reason that none of the big boys want nukes that they can't control. And nothing would force China to take the risk of invading Taiwan faster than the latter starting a nuclear weapons program.
philistine 3y ago
What you’re proposing is the same as the US recognizing the independence of Québec, when its people themselves haven’t declared independence. The Taiwanese first and foremost decide their status, and they want to maintain the status quo. We can’t force another people to declare their own independence when they don’t want to.
sandspar 3y ago
[flagged]
- justinclift 3y ago
  > It's not America's position to declare Taiwan an independent country or not. That sounds weird. Why should the US not be able to declare that they (the US) consider Taiwan an independent country? The US isn't the UN, which seems like the more "correct" body to give such a declaration wide ranging meaning.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    The US could recognize Taiwan as "the real China", and de-recognize mainland China. But recognizing Taiwan as a separate entity not including mainland China, would be kind of weird because Taiwan does apparently not aspire to that themselves. At least it would be weird without coordinating that with Taiwan first.
  - samus 3y ago
    There is no point recognizing Taiwan as an independent country without Taiwan declaring independence first. The US could technically recognize the ROC again as China, but that makes even less sense. Among other things, it would make the Security Council non-functional since at least Russia would never support a motion to give China's seat back to the ROC.

samus 3y ago

The RoC releasing its claim on the rest of China would be a de-facto declaration of independence as well since it wound cease to be the rump state of the country founded in 1912 and become something else.

sfmike 3y ago
do they still claim this? is this official? or old KMT rhetoric
- throwaway2990 3y ago
  It’s written into their Constitution. Taiwan doesn’t care for China at all. Just wants to be left alone to live and continue to prosper.
  - sandspar 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - throwaway2990 3y ago
      Which is why they voted for the party that doesn’t want to merge with China. They saw what happened with Hong Kong. They don’t want that to happen to them.
- samus 3y ago
  The constitution says so. However, it was amended in the early 90ties to acknowledge that the scope of the ROC government is presently limited to Taiwan and the outlying islands.

lmm 3y ago

I actually think this is a golden opportunity to recognise Taiwan. The PRC isn't ready to invade - Russia's performance has them doing some soul-searching, which will ultimately result in a stronger military, but right now they're on the back foot. The Chinese economy is struggling for various reasons and export restrictions are already in the air, making this a particularly bad time for them to start a trade war.

Der_Einzige 3y ago
Ceasing the moment can avoid so much pain later. We had time before NK originally got nukes to negotiate a deal with Deng era China which would have involved a two prong invasion and giving north korea up to become a Chinese puppet state. A Chinese puppet would be infinitely better than what they have going on right now, and the folks in south Korea would sleep much more soundly. I'm glad to see the US appearing to cease the moment similarly here.
- dazilcher 3y ago
  "seize the moment"
  - Der_Einzige 3y ago
    Phone autocorrect got me! Carpe Diem
iforgotpassword 3y ago
Please, take a look at a map will you? Taiwan is tiny compared to the Ukraine, China could bomb the island into oblivion in a day. With all the problems China currently has, I have little faith they'd just sit there and do nothing if Taiwan declared independence. In fact this can easily be used to unite the population because you have an external problem, common enemy, and suddenly the economy tanking isn't that important anymore. It would be the end for Taiwan and suck hard for the rest of the world. And with the Russian invasion still going on at the same time, it could very well bring us another step closer to nukes being used. I just watched Dr. Strangelove again and it felt very different that time.

empath-nirvana 3y ago

I think as long as an invasion of Taiwan looks _difficult_, and the overwhelming likely hood that invading Taiwan will leave Taiwan a smoking crater, that is enough to keep China from invading it. China benefits tremendously economically from trading with Taiwan and they aren't going to throw that way over national pride, _as long as Taiwan doesn't declare independence_.

novolunt 3y ago
Taiwan benefits tremendously economically from trading with chinese Mainland(true data).
sandspar 3y ago
[flagged]
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  It would be like Russia bombing the Ukraine.

novolunt 3y ago

[dead]

seo-speedwagon 3y ago

You start out in 1972 by saying, "One China, One China." By 2016 you can't say "One China"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like “the close economic, political and security ties between Taiwan and the US” and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now that you're talking about permanent training missions, and all these things you're talking about are totally regional stability things and a byproduct of them is the PRC gets hurt worse than the KMT. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the Taiwan problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "these are the commitments we made" is much more abstract than even the training mission thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "One China"

shrimp_emoji 3y ago
XDDD

_tik_ 3y ago

Turning Taiwan into another Ukraine? After a few years, the U.S. might lose interest in Taiwan, and the Taiwanese would pay with their lives. Most Taiwanese just want to go on with their lives and maintain the status quo.

rightbyte 3y ago
Getting crushed betweem super powers is a nightmare. Once the elite starts to align with one super power or the other rather than their constituents you are in for a very bad time.
skmurphy 3y ago
Permanently stationing US troops on Taiwan is a very different strategy from what the US did with Ukraine. It says we are willing to put our troops in harms way in the event of a Chinese attack on or invasion of Taiwan.

lenkite 3y ago

Seems the war-mongering attitude of American citizens is really high in today's world. Peace is spat upon and treated with contempt - planned coups/bombings/large number of non-american fatalities is far better! More bonuses for the C-suite executives (and main shareholders) of the American War Industry! Kindly recognize Palestine as a separate state according to United Nations Resolution 181, before you recognize Taiwan and kick-start yet another war.

Paradigma11 3y ago
The war would start if China starts an invasion and not before. That is completely on China.
- lenkite 3y ago
  No, its not. The U.S. cannot abrogate responsibility. Taiwan is not recognized by the U.N. If the U.S. declares Taiwan as a free, independent nation when the Chinese have an explicitly declared, stated political claim since independence and the U.S. has left the matter as "strategically ambiguous" for decades, then such a deliberate change in position along with active militarization of Taiwan simply begs for Chinese intervention. The U.S. has started bombing campaigns for less reasons when organizations whose existence it has objected to have become armed. So the sanctimonious hypocrisy of baiting someone then claiming foul when the other responds won't really work here. The U.S. media will of-course fully blame China with 24x7 "evil china" campaigns. The non-NATO world will just shake their heads.
  - samus 3y ago
    Taiwan is the rump state of the ROC, which admittedly survived so far because of US influence. But Taiwan is also not recognized by most states as a country because of China flexing its diplomatic and economic muscles. Many countries also just don't like the West. The current status quo is quite confusing, but has resulted in economic prosperity on both sides of the straits and mutual economic dependency of China and the West. There is little to gain and a whole lot to lose for all involved parties.

Paradigma11 3y ago

I read that China would interpret such an action as a declaration of independence and threatens with invasion in case Taiwan does so. Similarly to how China threatened Hongkong if there had been any democratic reforms by the British. That does not hinder China apologists now from bringing up the lack of democracy under british rule.

TMWNN 3y ago

>Would be nice if we could just recognize Taiwan as an independent country. Trump, as president-elect in late 2016, took a congratulatory phone call from Taiwan's president, something that had never happened before since normalization of US-China relations. I suspect that a second Trump administration will see him visit Taiwan, and restoration of formal diplomatic relations as opposed to the current "American Institute in Taiwan". I hope Trump goes further and explicitly encourages Taiwan to build nuclear weapons. Had the US not twice squelched Taiwanese efforts in the 1960s and 1970s, East Asia would be a much, much calmer place today.

samus 3y ago
Nuclear non-proliferation has been a remarkably common policy across most of the world. MAD itself is already insane, but even more so is encouraging more countries to develop nuclear weapons themselves. Taiwan was pressured to give up their nuclear program for the simple reason that none of the big boys want nukes that they can't control. And nothing would force China to take the risk of invading Taiwan faster than the latter starting a nuclear weapons program.

philistine 3y ago

What you’re proposing is the same as the US recognizing the independence of Québec, when its people themselves haven’t declared independence. The Taiwanese first and foremost decide their status, and they want to maintain the status quo. We can’t force another people to declare their own independence when they don’t want to.

sandspar 3y ago

[flagged]

justinclift 3y ago
> It's not America's position to declare Taiwan an independent country or not. That sounds weird. Why should the US not be able to declare that they (the US) consider Taiwan an independent country? The US isn't the UN, which seems like the more "correct" body to give such a declaration wide ranging meaning.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  The US could recognize Taiwan as "the real China", and de-recognize mainland China. But recognizing Taiwan as a separate entity not including mainland China, would be kind of weird because Taiwan does apparently not aspire to that themselves. At least it would be weird without coordinating that with Taiwan first.
- samus 3y ago
  There is no point recognizing Taiwan as an independent country without Taiwan declaring independence first. The US could technically recognize the ROC again as China, but that makes even less sense. Among other things, it would make the Security Council non-functional since at least Russia would never support a motion to give China's seat back to the ROC.