4 ms·

As someone who went out of their way and studied being a good listener, none of these are wrong, but I don't see it as being the best way of learning how to be

As someone who went out of their way and studied being a good listener, none of these are wrong, but I don't see it as being the best way of learning how to be a good listener. Reading about how to be a good listener can only get someone so far - watching someone demonstrate it and talking about it is the surest way to understand what it means. Specifically, Reflective listening[1], Clean language[2], and the approach used by Eugene Gendlin[3], jump-started my own skill of practicing being a good listener. You may also hear the term "holding space" as a sort of umbrella term for this as well. You would be amazing at how far these go toward creating a safe, non-judgemental, space for people. Simple, open-ended, genuine questions worded in their own language, has afforded me the opportunity to hear people open up from the very bottom of their souls. It's absolutely amazing that the simple act of listening can do that, but it does. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflective_listening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflective_listening 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_language 3. Wiki reference, but best seen, of course, on Youtube https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Gendlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Gendlin

madhir 3y ago
> watching someone demonstrate it and talking about it is the surest way to understand what it means Do you happen to have links to any example videos demonstrating this or are you referring to in person examples
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  Sorry, but the nature of the material and the HN audience at large is leading me to hesitate. I'd be happy to share privately, the material that spoke to me. Contact info in bio.
- jodrellblank 3y ago
  Dr Burns' Feeling Good Podcast has examples of listening to people, possibly not the same exact thing the parent comment means, but his T.E.A.M.S CBT therapy stands for "Testing, Empathy, ..." and Empathy is where the patient tells their problem, and the therapist has to communicate that they heard it and empathise with it. Otherwise if the therapist does a "yeah ok got that, let's move on" the patient will get stuck not wanting to move on and keep going back over what's wrong, thinking the therapist isn't properly understanding why they are there. [Happens in life elsewhere, e.g. if you complain to a company and get a generic 'sorry' and you feel like you haven't been heard and try complaining again. Whereas if you feel heard and understood, you don't need to try complaining again]. There's a ton of his podcasts and this comes up in many of them; some talking about it: 003 on E=Empathy 014 on The Five Secrets of Effective Communication 066 on The Five Secrets part 2 - Disarming people (by showing that you hear them) Some demonstrating / using / modelling it: 029 and 030 a recording of a therapy session with Mark 049 recording of a therapy session with Marilyn other 'live sessions' Detailed Database of podcasts: https://feelinggood.com/podcast-database/ https://feelinggood.com/podcast-database/
spidersenses 3y ago
>worded in their own language Would you (or someone else that's knowledgable) be so kind to share your approach to doing this? I find this to be hardest thing to do in the moment without feeling like a manipulative sociopath.
- deprecative 3y ago
  Well, yeah. It is manipulation. It's at best benevolent manipulation but that's what it is. That's what most human interaction is, though.
  - jodrellblank 3y ago
    Caring enough to listen, then communicating that you actually did listen by repeating some of the words they said back to them. How is that manipulation? In this context, wouldn't manipulation be where you don't listen then say some words which try to (falsely) communicate that you did listen? (Contrast: not listening, and showing that with "I ain't reading all that. I'm happy for u tho. Or sorry that happened". Contrast: actually did listen but they think you didn't, leading to "I'm so angry about X!" / "How come X is bothering you?" / "I am not bothered by it, I am angry about it!, weren't you listening?!" poor communication. Where "what about X is making you angry?" instead reflects the feelings they said, showing you heard what they said, but does not seem manipulative).
    - kelseyfrog 3y ago
      There is a nuanced, but important point to make here regarding responsibility. One of resources I watched (a therapist) described therapy as 90% active listening. It's important to be aware of that proportion and the tendency of people to really open up when someone is truly listening. For example, I was at a bar talking to a stranger when they had to take a break. They were on the brink of tears because they were talking about something that was so deeply meaningful to them[1]. I missed the flag and will always think back to my responsibility - just to pick up on those signs and ask the person if they're doing ok. There's a vulnerability index which I like to reference that conceptualizes some of this. The difference between open inquiry and probing/drilling is an important distinction to keep in mind when listening too. Laying some of these skills on too thickly can come across as more of an interview than a conversation. 1. Palestine
novok 3y ago
On the flip side, if you are too good of a listener, people stop listening to you because they enjoy being listened to. You become the calm person that attracts all the anxious into their lives. Sometimes, you have to stop holding space for others for them to finally understand that, no it's not ok what they are doing anymore. To help others listen to you, you realize you have to learn to scream, because as the author implies, the world is not good at listening. "And then, wow, I met the rest of the world."
- nicbou 3y ago
  I got better at listening, and more curious in general. I've met a lot of strangers recently as I am travelling. I sometimes sit with people for hours, learn everything about their lives, and never get to say what I do for a living. Never a single "and you?" I notice it happening at home too. Sometimes you'll talk with a friend for 30+ minutes, then think "I'm fine too, thanks for asking". I was lucky to meet good listeners early on and learn from them. I wish more people's first partner told them "you should return the question sometimes".
  - unsupp0rted 3y ago
    I've been on several dates like this. The other person talks about themselves for 30 ~ 90 minutes, exclusively, depending on how charitable I'm feeling that day. They don't ask me any questions about me at all. Like, not even one. I ask myself if it's because they're like that on any date with any person, or because they realized at first sight they weren't interested in me, so it doesn't matter to them if they learn anything at all about me during the date, since they don't expect to see me again either way. Sometimes I've tested this by doing a second date. They show up and talk about themselves non-stop. But then I ask myself the same question as before. Is it possible many otherwise neurotypical people can get into their 30s and 40s without ever having learned how to carry on a two-way conversation?
    - kelseyfrog 3y ago
      There is a friend in my life who I meet with regularly in a small group setting that falls into this category - never seeming to reciprocate. When I imagine asking him, "What don't you ask questions about my life?" I assume I'd get a response something like, "You can tell me anything," or "I'm open to hearing what you want to talk about," or "You're free to talk about anything." If I had to devise a quick mental model, it might seem like the difference between talking at someone vs talking with someone? I might have to think about that a bit more. Do you have any insight here?

madhir 3y ago

> watching someone demonstrate it and talking about it is the surest way to understand what it means Do you happen to have links to any example videos demonstrating this or are you referring to in person examples

kelseyfrog 3y ago
Sorry, but the nature of the material and the HN audience at large is leading me to hesitate. I'd be happy to share privately, the material that spoke to me. Contact info in bio.
jodrellblank 3y ago
Dr Burns' Feeling Good Podcast has examples of listening to people, possibly not the same exact thing the parent comment means, but his T.E.A.M.S CBT therapy stands for "Testing, Empathy, ..." and Empathy is where the patient tells their problem, and the therapist has to communicate that they heard it and empathise with it. Otherwise if the therapist does a "yeah ok got that, let's move on" the patient will get stuck not wanting to move on and keep going back over what's wrong, thinking the therapist isn't properly understanding why they are there. [Happens in life elsewhere, e.g. if you complain to a company and get a generic 'sorry' and you feel like you haven't been heard and try complaining again. Whereas if you feel heard and understood, you don't need to try complaining again]. There's a ton of his podcasts and this comes up in many of them; some talking about it: 003 on E=Empathy 014 on The Five Secrets of Effective Communication 066 on The Five Secrets part 2 - Disarming people (by showing that you hear them) Some demonstrating / using / modelling it: 029 and 030 a recording of a therapy session with Mark 049 recording of a therapy session with Marilyn other 'live sessions' Detailed Database of podcasts: https://feelinggood.com/podcast-database/ https://feelinggood.com/podcast-database/

spidersenses 3y ago

>worded in their own language Would you (or someone else that's knowledgable) be so kind to share your approach to doing this? I find this to be hardest thing to do in the moment without feeling like a manipulative sociopath.

deprecative 3y ago
Well, yeah. It is manipulation. It's at best benevolent manipulation but that's what it is. That's what most human interaction is, though.
- jodrellblank 3y ago
  Caring enough to listen, then communicating that you actually did listen by repeating some of the words they said back to them. How is that manipulation? In this context, wouldn't manipulation be where you don't listen then say some words which try to (falsely) communicate that you did listen? (Contrast: not listening, and showing that with "I ain't reading all that. I'm happy for u tho. Or sorry that happened". Contrast: actually did listen but they think you didn't, leading to "I'm so angry about X!" / "How come X is bothering you?" / "I am not bothered by it, I am angry about it!, weren't you listening?!" poor communication. Where "what about X is making you angry?" instead reflects the feelings they said, showing you heard what they said, but does not seem manipulative).
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    There is a nuanced, but important point to make here regarding responsibility. One of resources I watched (a therapist) described therapy as 90% active listening. It's important to be aware of that proportion and the tendency of people to really open up when someone is truly listening. For example, I was at a bar talking to a stranger when they had to take a break. They were on the brink of tears because they were talking about something that was so deeply meaningful to them[1]. I missed the flag and will always think back to my responsibility - just to pick up on those signs and ask the person if they're doing ok. There's a vulnerability index which I like to reference that conceptualizes some of this. The difference between open inquiry and probing/drilling is an important distinction to keep in mind when listening too. Laying some of these skills on too thickly can come across as more of an interview than a conversation. 1. Palestine

novok 3y ago

On the flip side, if you are too good of a listener, people stop listening to you because they enjoy being listened to. You become the calm person that attracts all the anxious into their lives. Sometimes, you have to stop holding space for others for them to finally understand that, no it's not ok what they are doing anymore. To help others listen to you, you realize you have to learn to scream, because as the author implies, the world is not good at listening. "And then, wow, I met the rest of the world."

nicbou 3y ago
I got better at listening, and more curious in general. I've met a lot of strangers recently as I am travelling. I sometimes sit with people for hours, learn everything about their lives, and never get to say what I do for a living. Never a single "and you?" I notice it happening at home too. Sometimes you'll talk with a friend for 30+ minutes, then think "I'm fine too, thanks for asking". I was lucky to meet good listeners early on and learn from them. I wish more people's first partner told them "you should return the question sometimes".
- unsupp0rted 3y ago
  I've been on several dates like this. The other person talks about themselves for 30 ~ 90 minutes, exclusively, depending on how charitable I'm feeling that day. They don't ask me any questions about me at all. Like, not even one. I ask myself if it's because they're like that on any date with any person, or because they realized at first sight they weren't interested in me, so it doesn't matter to them if they learn anything at all about me during the date, since they don't expect to see me again either way. Sometimes I've tested this by doing a second date. They show up and talk about themselves non-stop. But then I ask myself the same question as before. Is it possible many otherwise neurotypical people can get into their 30s and 40s without ever having learned how to carry on a two-way conversation?
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    There is a friend in my life who I meet with regularly in a small group setting that falls into this category - never seeming to reciprocate. When I imagine asking him, "What don't you ask questions about my life?" I assume I'd get a response something like, "You can tell me anything," or "I'm open to hearing what you want to talk about," or "You're free to talk about anything." If I had to devise a quick mental model, it might seem like the difference between talking at someone vs talking with someone? I might have to think about that a bit more. Do you have any insight here?