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I don't understand. Is Taiwan or isn't Taiwan an independent country? If it isn't, then did we just declare war on China?
by givemeethekeys 3y ago
I don't understand. Is Taiwan or isn't Taiwan an independent country? If it isn't, then did we just declare war on China?
- pyuser583 3y agoThe US position is deliberately ambiguous.
- givemeethekeys 3y agoPermanently stationing our best and brightest looks anything but ambiguous though.
- icegreentea2 3y agoYes, the US' ambiguity has been slipping a little bit of late, but it still compatible with their long-term held position. The US has consistently (over decades) both not recognized PRC sovereignty over Taiwan, while also not recognizing Taiwanese independence. However, US actions have also been clear. In 1996, the US sailed a carrier battle group right down the straits when things get testy. The US has been selling weapons to Taiwan for decades. The US has enacted export limitations against one country, but not another. Functionally, this action did not declare war on China. Yes, China leadership could find a way to stretch this into "war", but they also could have stretched any of the other things the US has recently done (including Biden straight up saying that the US would intervene if China invaded).
- quartesixte 3y agoYeah diplomacy isn't a series of automatic actions based on flow-control or checklists. Just because you crossed some lines doesn't mean the other party will respond exactly how they will. That being said, credibility is important when making threats. And letting your lines in the proverbial sand get crossed, moved, erased, redrawn, etc. endlessly can make for some ... interesting geopolitical situations.
- sandspar 3y ago[flagged]
- wolverine876 3y agoIt's a very small force, no threat to China's military.
- whythre 3y agoThe troops stationed there are not meant to hold off a mainland invasion by themselves. The presence of US troops means that if China attacks, the USA is going to suffer military casualties, so there is almost certainly going to be war between the CCP and the US. Without US troop presence, things are more ambiguous.
- The_Colonel 3y agoIt's called "Tripwire force". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripwire_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripwire_force
- wolverine876 3y agoThese are trainers (if that article is correct - I have no idea of their credibility), not a tripwire force.
- whythre 3y agoThe two are not mutually exclusive. If China invades and kills US soldiers in the process, training team or no, that’s still gonna be casus belli for the US.
- wolverine876 3y agoI don't think so. Iranian proxies and others have killed US soldiers recently without starting a war.
- pyuser583 3y agoThe US had a training team in Georgia when Russia invaded. The trainers turned themselves over to the Russians, and were interred (at the Ritz) as neutral soldiers. A training team can be a tripwire, or not. Again, ambiguity.
- noxs 3y agoTaiwan is not, but China is. Which China is ambiguous.
- Vecr 3y agoThe Republic of China is in control of the island formally known as Formosa. Taipei is a city on Formosa also under Republic of China control. Internationally, representatives of Taipei and the surrounding area are sometimes said to be representing "Chinese Taipei", because Taipei is on Formosa and Formosa is Chinese. There is only one China, and China is the rightful owner of Formosa, and one of its cities, Taipei.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThere are also plenty of Taiwanese that don’t think Taiwan belongs to either the PRC or ROC. The DPP, who are in power right now, is much closer to that opinion. Obviously the CPC dislikes the DPP (compared to the KMT, who at least believe Taiwan is a part of a china), but whenever the CPC speaks out against the DPP, the CPC only helps the DPP win elections.
- math_dandy 3y agoWhen’s the Formosan independence referendum?
- Vecr 3y agoIndependent of China or China?
- throwaway2990 3y agoTaiwan is a country regardless of UN status or opinion. China just uses its weight to bully countries into submission on declaring their view on Taiwan.
- bfung 3y agoIf you ask people in Taiwan, they will say they’re independent. If you ask China, they’ll say Taiwan belongs to China. The short history version is basically like this: after the overthrowing of the last emperor and WW2, the Chinese civil war continued between the KMT political party and the Communist party. KMT basically lost and moved to which is Taiwan today and even the KMT now is no longer the controlling majority now (they have elections whereas mainland China does not).
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago[flagged]
- jack1243star 3y agoI guess it's not as easy to do polls in an authoritarian country.
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago[flagged]
- samus 3y agoNone of these criteria qualify. Try again.
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago[flagged]
- samus 3y agoThat's a better argument :) I'd also like to add that prisoners in the USA lose their voting rights. However, the argument was initially about Taiwan, not about the USA.
- 3y ago
- palmfacehn 3y agoI agree that the situation doesn't make sense at first glance. The contradictions are glaring. The US has both supported the one-China policy and supported Taiwanese independence. Even with these simple statements, someone here will probably find fault and offer a correction. This isn't something that can be understood outside of the "ends-justify-the-means", "but my pragmatism" and other sausage making slogans of the foreign policy establishment. We'd have to go through all of the historical machinations before we'd even begin to have a context. You're not wrong for looking for some semblance of logical consistency. If you prefer analysis from first principles, that's fine, I'd even agree with that perspective in many ways, but you'll have difficulty evaluating the status quo of geopolitics. Maybe a long way of saying that it doesn't make sense, it isn't supposed to make sense under scrutiny, it probably never will make sense and the expectation is for knights-errant.
- temporalparts 3y agoGoing by the contrapositive: Since China doesn't perceive this as a declaration of war, then I guess by your binary logic Taiwan's an independent country.
- lmm 3y ago"Country" is an abstract concept and this is one of the cases where the abstraction breaks down. The map is not the territory etc.. Taiwan is a sovereign nation in most respects, at least to the extent that any non-superpower is. China insists stringently on the legal fiction that it is a part of China controlled by a different faction in a frozen-but-ongoing civil war, and other countries - not least Taiwan itself - go along with that legal fiction under the implicit or explicit threat of Chinese force; a threat that is less effective against the US than against many other countries. Is this an act of war by the US against the PRC? Eh, maybe, if you accept the PRC's territorial claims. A lot of technically-acts-of-war happen, especially in situations like this. Again this is a case where the abstraction breaks down and the realpolitik becomes paramount.
- sandspar 3y ago[flagged]
- hehhehaha 3y agoAll foreign relations are an expression of power. Taiwan is a country if enough powerful nations say so and are willing to defend the idea. Mainland China is part of the Republic of China if Taiwan has the military might. The one china policy holds as long as the KMT and PRC are in power. Etc etc etc.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- 29athrowaway 3y agoIt depends who you ask. In practice, it is an independent country. But the People's Republic of China (PRC) has a "one China" policy where they claim Taiwan as theirs. PRC spends a large deal of their diplomatic efforts trying to enforce their policy.
- darthrupert 3y agoRepublic of China is an independent country, but for now its territory is limited to just the island of Taiwan instead of its legitimate territory of mainland China.
- TulliusCicero 3y agoIt's independent, but for historical reasons we have to pretend that it kind of isn't. But it is, obviously. Anyone who's not a moron can see that.
- sandspar 3y ago[flagged]
- waterheater 3y agoOther folks have highlighted the basics, so here's an analogous situation to think about: imagine that the US civil war saw the CSA taking over the territory of the USA, with the US federal government moving to a large hypothetical island off the East Coast. The CSA never completely eliminated all constituent US elements, so the USA still technically exists. Fast forward to sixty years after the fighting just stopped one day. How would you view those two political entities? Are they equal? Does the existence of the CSA mean the USA doesn't exist as a country? What if the CSA implements trade policies which dissuade you from recognizing the USA as an independent nation? Does the USA still exist in your eyes? Is the USA or the CSA the "true" country? The answer at this point in time is quite simple: the Republic of China (aka Taiwan) is clearly an independent country. However, the People's Republic of China (aka China) holds such economic power, they bully the rest of the world (though trade policies, etc.) into not recognizing Taiwan as an independent country. Also, the combination of geography and maritime law means that if Taiwan is an independent country, China has very little direct access to the open seas. They want freedom of navigation, so there's a geopolitical angle as well. Look into the construction of artificial islands in the South China Sea to advance the Nine Dashed Line policy. You also need to remember that Chinese civilization is extremely old. The PRC claims to hold something called the Mandate of Heaven, which is a fairly important concept in Chinese history, as it is divine authority to rule over the Chinese people. Frankly, based on how the PRC acts, the RC clearly holds the Mandate of Heaven these days.
- samus 3y agoChina would have open access to the oceans even without controlling Taiwan. The same rules that deny China territorial rights to the South China Sea also grant it access to the oceans. The Nine Dash line is about territory. China wants the South China Sea to be considered its territorial waters where it can make stronger demands about who passes through and what they could do there. It's not the only country trying to do something like that, but international law generally only recognizes the sea up to 12 miles out to be territorial waters. The Mandate of Heaven is rather more like a justification of de-facto rule and claiming to have lost it is an argument against a failing dynasty. The dynasty managing to unite China would declare it, and as it eventually collapses, rebels would declare it to be forfeit. There would be messy civil war, one of the warring groups would dominate all the others, and the cycle starts anew.
- tehjoker 3y agoYep, that's how China will interpret it. It won't become hot, but it's such an aggressive move, and "trainers" rarely only do training, that it will ratchet up tensions.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThey are there as a deadman’s switch, so if China invades Taiwan, America will have to get involved. They had the same play on the Korean border for a few decades. You are correct it isn’t just training, but to ensure the American people are committed because American troops would have been killed in the PLA’s initial missile volley.
- tehjoker 3y agoThat's an escalation. It also violates the sovereignty of China, which America recognizes officially under the "one china policy".
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThat’s international politics. Yes, mainland Chinese will be face hurt, but face hurt is not against Geneva convention. The Taiwan situation has been escalating for awhile now that almost everyone expects an invasion before Xi’s lifetime term ends.
- AdamH12113 3y agoPractically? Yes, it’s an independent country and has been for many decades. They have their own government, military, currency, etc. Diplomatically? No, most countries officially recognize it as part of the PRC. Why the inconsistency? If you recognize Taiwan’s independence, the PRC won’t talk to you. If Taiwan declares independence, the PRC will invade (or at least has threatened to). Pretending that Taiwan is part of China while also making it very clear that we will defend Taiwan from China bit silly, but being silly is better than having a great power war.
- iforgotpassword 3y agoWell said. Make it look not worth it to China but at the same time play by their rules. Both sides know this is one of the biggest games of bullshit going on. The two risk factors now are China's economy tanking and Xi being a lifetime dictator. If the population suffers, having an external crisis at hand where you can easily paint the other side as the bad guy is an excellent distraction, and for the other point, absolute power corrupts absolutely. A we've seen with Putin, as you near the end of your life the less you care about the fallout of your actions, but at the same time your desire to leave a mark grows...
- za3faran 3y agoThe question is, how many countries is the US going to "defend" before things collapse? This does not seem like a sustainable situation.
- AdamH12113 3y agoThe US has been supporting Taiwan's de facto independence since the 1950s. I'm not sure what's supposed to be unsustainable about that, or what "things" are supposed to "collapse".
- sandspar 3y ago[flagged]