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However, the audience is used to shutter angle as part of the visual vernacular (e.g., narrow shutter angle for hyper edgy rap videos, long shutter angle for dr

However, the audience is used to shutter angle as part of the visual vernacular (e.g., narrow shutter angle for hyper edgy rap videos, long shutter angle for dreamy retro vibes). If rendered content can't speak the same visual language, a tool is missing, regardless of framerate (up to a point... At 400Hz, I'd be impressed by someone really seeing the difference). What's interesting about rendered content is that it can extend that (e.g., a shutter angle beyond the duration of a frame), playing with something we thought we had a handle on.

drc500free 3y ago
I first learned about shutter angle when reading about its use in Saving Private Ryan; the narrow 45 and 90 degree shutters made the opening scenes much more visceral with so much flying through the air. https://cinemashock.org/2012/07/30/45-degree-shutter-in-saving-private-ryan/ https://cinemashock.org/2012/07/30/45-degree-shutter-in-savi...
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  That was a really interesting article, thanks!
CarVac 3y ago
It's also used for subject isolation in much the same way as depth of field. Only objects not moving relative to the frame can be seen sharply.
orlp 3y ago
> At 400Hz, I'd be impressed by someone really seeing the difference. Trivial. Drag your white cursor quickly across the screen against a black background. You will see clear gaps between the individual cursor afterimages on your retina. Double the FPS, halve the size of the gaps. On a 240Hz monitor I can so clearly see gaps such that if they were halved the gaps would still easily be visible. Ergo 400Hz would still easily be distinguishable from continuous motion. To put numbers on this, consider a vertical line 1 pixel wide moving across a 4K screen in 1 second (that's not even that fast). At 480Hz that's a shift of 8 pixels per frame. So you'd need at least 8x the framerate for motion of this line to be continuous.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  > Trivial. Drag your white cursor quickly across the screen against a black background. You will see clear gaps between the individual cursor afterimages on your retina. That's the outcome of aliasing, not of the FPS limitation itself. You could analytically supersample the motion in the time domain and then blur it just enough to remove the aliasing, and the distinct images would then disappear. Motion blur approximates the same result.
  - blauditore 3y ago
    That's not true at all. When moving multiple pixels per frame, there will always be visible jumps. Aliasing only becomes relevant at the pixel level.
    - zozbot234 3y ago
      "Pixels" and "frames" are the exact same thing analytically, only in the spatial vs. time domain. This is very much an instance of aliasing, which is why blur happens to correct it.
      - blauditore 3y ago
        Alright, but supersampling would exactly achieve another approximation to (real) motion blur, but still suffer from the same issues (like not becoming sharp when tracking with your eyes).
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3y ago
    Yeah but if your eyes were tracking it smoothly, it would not appear blurry. You could try to approximate _that_ with eye tracking but achieving such low latency might be even harder than cranking up the FPS
    - zozbot234 3y ago
      If your eyes were tracking the motion smoothly, the moving object would not appear blurry, but the static background absolutely would. So you'd need to apply anti-aliasing to the background while keeping the object images sharp. (Similar to how a line segment that's aligned with the pixel grid will still look sharp after applying line anti-aliasing. Motion tracking here amounts to a skewing of the pixel grid.)
harimau777 3y ago
Can you recommend any resources on how shutter angle is used to communicate different messages in film? The Wikipedia article only gives some very basic examples (short shutter angle when you want to capture particles in the air or for action scenes).
- chaboud 3y ago
  https://www.indepthcine.com/videos/shutter-angle https://www.indepthcine.com/videos/shutter-angle

drc500free 3y ago

I first learned about shutter angle when reading about its use in Saving Private Ryan; the narrow 45 and 90 degree shutters made the opening scenes much more visceral with so much flying through the air. https://cinemashock.org/2012/07/30/45-degree-shutter-in-saving-private-ryan/ https://cinemashock.org/2012/07/30/45-degree-shutter-in-savi...

arrowsmith 3y ago
That was a really interesting article, thanks!

CarVac 3y ago

It's also used for subject isolation in much the same way as depth of field. Only objects not moving relative to the frame can be seen sharply.

orlp 3y ago

> At 400Hz, I'd be impressed by someone really seeing the difference. Trivial. Drag your white cursor quickly across the screen against a black background. You will see clear gaps between the individual cursor afterimages on your retina. Double the FPS, halve the size of the gaps. On a 240Hz monitor I can so clearly see gaps such that if they were halved the gaps would still easily be visible. Ergo 400Hz would still easily be distinguishable from continuous motion. To put numbers on this, consider a vertical line 1 pixel wide moving across a 4K screen in 1 second (that's not even that fast). At 480Hz that's a shift of 8 pixels per frame. So you'd need at least 8x the framerate for motion of this line to be continuous.

zozbot234 3y ago
> Trivial. Drag your white cursor quickly across the screen against a black background. You will see clear gaps between the individual cursor afterimages on your retina. That's the outcome of aliasing, not of the FPS limitation itself. You could analytically supersample the motion in the time domain and then blur it just enough to remove the aliasing, and the distinct images would then disappear. Motion blur approximates the same result.
- blauditore 3y ago
  That's not true at all. When moving multiple pixels per frame, there will always be visible jumps. Aliasing only becomes relevant at the pixel level.
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    "Pixels" and "frames" are the exact same thing analytically, only in the spatial vs. time domain. This is very much an instance of aliasing, which is why blur happens to correct it.
    - blauditore 3y ago
      Alright, but supersampling would exactly achieve another approximation to (real) motion blur, but still suffer from the same issues (like not becoming sharp when tracking with your eyes).
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3y ago
  Yeah but if your eyes were tracking it smoothly, it would not appear blurry. You could try to approximate _that_ with eye tracking but achieving such low latency might be even harder than cranking up the FPS
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    If your eyes were tracking the motion smoothly, the moving object would not appear blurry, but the static background absolutely would. So you'd need to apply anti-aliasing to the background while keeping the object images sharp. (Similar to how a line segment that's aligned with the pixel grid will still look sharp after applying line anti-aliasing. Motion tracking here amounts to a skewing of the pixel grid.)

harimau777 3y ago

Can you recommend any resources on how shutter angle is used to communicate different messages in film? The Wikipedia article only gives some very basic examples (short shutter angle when you want to capture particles in the air or for action scenes).

chaboud 3y ago
https://www.indepthcine.com/videos/shutter-angle https://www.indepthcine.com/videos/shutter-angle