4 ms·

I understand why this is the case but it’s also extremely frustrating: > It is extremely difficult for programmer-users to report bugs against the Windows API

by mastax 3y ago

I understand why this is the case but it’s also extremely frustrating: > It is extremely difficult for programmer-users to report bugs against the Windows API (we're supposed to direct you to Feedback Hub, but you may as well transmit your message into deep space). I've filed OS-49268777 "SRWLOCK can deadlock after an exclusive owner has released ownership and several reader threads are attempting to acquire shared ownership together" with a slightly reduced repro. > Thanks for doing your homework and creating a self-contained repro, plus pre-emptively exonerating the STL. I've filed this OS bug as a special favor - bug reports are usually off-topic for r/cpp. The microsoft/STL GitHub repo is the proper channel for reporting STL misbehavior; it would have been acceptable here even though the root cause is in the Windows API because this situation is so rare. If you see STL misbehavior but it's clearly due to a compiler bug, reporting compiler bugs directly to VS Developer Community is the proper thing to do.

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
The best way I know of to report bugs to windows is report them as documentation bugs. see for example https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/pull/3526 https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/pull/3526.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  Clever!
  - kazinator 3y ago
    Clever until they just fix the documentation to match what the implementation is doing.
- ddlsmurf 3y ago
  It looks like it was declared in Nov 21, and in May 23 they merged in the "fix" by adding "it's approximate" to the docs ( https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/commit/447b5d8a78111f3c3e820fc085a10640ed28d4a5 https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/commit/447b5d8a781... ), so not sure this is the best approach for actual bugs.
1over137 3y ago
Nice to know that it's not just Apple to whom reporting bugs in hopeless. :)
- masklinn 3y ago
  I generally assume that's the case for any large company. Sometimes I get pleasantly surprised, but generally speaking the internal incentives are skewed against, the primary focus is whatever the roadmap is followed by tickets from paying clients, public bugs generally have a very low hit ratio so they're unrewarding, unless you manage to snipe one of the company's employees (either nerd-snipe or interest / shock them enough to raise the issue internally) it's like playing the lottery.
  - jansan 3y ago
    > I generally assume that's the case for any large company. Despite Google partly losing its marbles recently, reporting bugs to Chromium still works very well.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      I wonder if the open source element of the project keeps them “honest” to some extent?
    - GrumpySloth 3y ago
      Not my experience. When I report a bug in Chromium, it’s usually quickly verified as legit, and then left for dead forever.
  - generic92034 3y ago
    > I generally assume that's the case for any large company. What works to some degree are dedicated maintenance teams providing development support. If their main task is fixing bugs and they are evaluated on this basis, support tickets reporting real bugs have a good chance to receive the required attention. However, there is always the temptation for management to redirect resources from those teams. But at least in the B2B area costly customer escalations can remind management of the importance of good maintenance.
jcalvinowens 3y ago
> It is extremely difficult for programmer-users to report bugs against the Windows API I can't imagine living in this hell. When I find bugs in Linux, I E-mail the actual engineers directly and get responses in under 24 hours: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/Zcb3_fdyJWUlZQci@gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/Zcb3_fdyJWUlZQci@gmail.com/
- charcircuit 3y ago
  Microsoft engineers have emails too.
  - dieortin 3y ago
    And how would you know what email to contact in a case like this one? It’s not about “having email”
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      You can either go down the route of finding the team that owns the code and then contacting someone on that team, or by contacting someone you know from the company to look it up for you or report the bug on your behalf.
      - account42 3y ago
        > the route of finding the team that owns the code and then contacting someone on that team Nice circle, now the reader will only hav to fill in the rest of the owl. The benefit of the open open development model of Linux is that you don't have to have "someone you know" on the inside or essentially spam whatever contacts you can dig up until you find someone who has pity on you. You have actually publicly available developers (from many different companies, including hardware manufacturers) as well as real bug trackers where you can find if other users have had the same issue.
  - Tringi 3y ago
    And Twitter/X accounts. I have had a lot more things fixed in Windows or MSVC from nagging devs on there than from reporting through any official channel.
TillE 3y ago
Like the comment says, filing an issue on GitHub would've also eventually led to a proper internal report, so the system isn't wholly reliant on one guy trawling Reddit. I have many complaints about Win32 (having half a dozen different error code types, for one), but outright bugs are really rare.

by mastax 3y ago

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago

The best way I know of to report bugs to windows is report them as documentation bugs. see for example https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/pull/3526 https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/pull/3526.

IshKebab 3y ago
Clever!
- kazinator 3y ago
  Clever until they just fix the documentation to match what the implementation is doing.
ddlsmurf 3y ago
It looks like it was declared in Nov 21, and in May 23 they merged in the "fix" by adding "it's approximate" to the docs ( https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/commit/447b5d8a78111f3c3e820fc085a10640ed28d4a5 https://github.com/MicrosoftDocs/cpp-docs/commit/447b5d8a781... ), so not sure this is the best approach for actual bugs.

1over137 3y ago

Nice to know that it's not just Apple to whom reporting bugs in hopeless. :)

masklinn 3y ago
I generally assume that's the case for any large company. Sometimes I get pleasantly surprised, but generally speaking the internal incentives are skewed against, the primary focus is whatever the roadmap is followed by tickets from paying clients, public bugs generally have a very low hit ratio so they're unrewarding, unless you manage to snipe one of the company's employees (either nerd-snipe or interest / shock them enough to raise the issue internally) it's like playing the lottery.
- jansan 3y ago
  > I generally assume that's the case for any large company. Despite Google partly losing its marbles recently, reporting bugs to Chromium still works very well.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    I wonder if the open source element of the project keeps them “honest” to some extent?
  - GrumpySloth 3y ago
    Not my experience. When I report a bug in Chromium, it’s usually quickly verified as legit, and then left for dead forever.
- generic92034 3y ago
  > I generally assume that's the case for any large company. What works to some degree are dedicated maintenance teams providing development support. If their main task is fixing bugs and they are evaluated on this basis, support tickets reporting real bugs have a good chance to receive the required attention. However, there is always the temptation for management to redirect resources from those teams. But at least in the B2B area costly customer escalations can remind management of the importance of good maintenance.

jcalvinowens 3y ago

> It is extremely difficult for programmer-users to report bugs against the Windows API I can't imagine living in this hell. When I find bugs in Linux, I E-mail the actual engineers directly and get responses in under 24 hours: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/Zcb3_fdyJWUlZQci@gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/Zcb3_fdyJWUlZQci@gmail.com/

charcircuit 3y ago
Microsoft engineers have emails too.
- dieortin 3y ago
  And how would you know what email to contact in a case like this one? It’s not about “having email”
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    You can either go down the route of finding the team that owns the code and then contacting someone on that team, or by contacting someone you know from the company to look it up for you or report the bug on your behalf.
    - account42 3y ago
      > the route of finding the team that owns the code and then contacting someone on that team Nice circle, now the reader will only hav to fill in the rest of the owl. The benefit of the open open development model of Linux is that you don't have to have "someone you know" on the inside or essentially spam whatever contacts you can dig up until you find someone who has pity on you. You have actually publicly available developers (from many different companies, including hardware manufacturers) as well as real bug trackers where you can find if other users have had the same issue.
- Tringi 3y ago
  And Twitter/X accounts. I have had a lot more things fixed in Windows or MSVC from nagging devs on there than from reporting through any official channel.

TillE 3y ago

Like the comment says, filing an issue on GitHub would've also eventually led to a proper internal report, so the system isn't wholly reliant on one guy trawling Reddit. I have many complaints about Win32 (having half a dozen different error code types, for one), but outright bugs are really rare.