12 ms·

Why do east Asian firms value drinking?

132 points by surprisetalk 3y ago

tus666 3y ago
[flagged]
- crhulls 3y ago
  I’m about as anti-woke as it gets but I want to give the author credit for a well thought out article. If I discount any writing from “the enemy” I’ll just reinforce my filter bubble. Are there specific things you didn’t agree with here?
tombert 3y ago
Even in the US, in tech firms, it's pretty common to have happy hours where everyone drinks a bit. I don't drink at all due to my sleep apnea, and don't even have caffeine after 1pm for the same reason, so I'm pretty much always in this kind of awkward position of sipping on a water throughout the night while coworkers get more and more inebriated. I don't think it's ever directly hurt my chances of promotion or anything, but I do think it makes socializing harder.
- arccy 3y ago
  there are plenty of other beverages that aren't alcoholic/caffeinated than just plain water
  - cool_dude85 3y ago
    Do you think they would have a better time if they were drinking a sprite or something? Being with drunk people when you're sober is not fun for either party regardless.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      I think that depends on how ridiculous and uninhibited you can be when sober.
    - ofrzeta 3y ago
      Drinkers also don't like having teetotalers around them because of the bad conscience they induce.
      - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
        Speak for yourself. I am a fervent enjoyer of booze, and I feel absolutely nothing in the presence of people who don't drink. Partake in whatever you want to have a good time, be it a drink, or a smoke, or absolutely nothing and as long as you're happy, we'll get along a-okay.
      - parpfish 3y ago
        Another part of it is that (imo) one of the biggest boons from group drinking is that it builds trust by giving people something to bond over — you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group. Teetotalers might be there physically, but they’ve opted out of the shared experience of making themselves vulnerable.
        tombert 3y ago
        I mean, I didn't really "opt out". I don't breath properly when I sleep, alcohol makes it worse, the doctor more or less made the decision for me. But I suppose alcohol is bad for basically everyone, and the others opt in to that risk as well.
        gedy 3y ago
        > you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group. In west coast tech companies with young people of both sexes, I absolutely refuse to drink due to not wanting to be accused of harassment or inappropriate behavior. I'm not a creep, but am older and not really attractive and am treated to a different standard. Sounds paranoid but have had coworkers accused, penalized, or fired after these events.
        parpfish 3y ago
    - matwood 3y ago
      There’s a big range between sober and drunk. The key to work drinks/happy hour is go for a single drink and leave. You get the best parts of being social and avoid the vast majority of the issues that come from people drinking with colleagues.
  - abought 3y ago
    Strange but true: I've been to a number of professional happy hours that offered free alcohol, but didn't provide other beverages. It got to the point that I started bringing my own water bottle to networking events, just in case. I'm a big fan of providing other beverage types. Being able to sip a soda etc from the same kind of container as everyone else goes a long way towards blending in.
    - chmod775 3y ago
      >Strange but true: I've been to a number of professional happy hours that offered free alcohol, but didn't provide other beverages. Failing to provide non-alcoholic drinks would be a faux pas even in Germany. It is indeed strange. I'd go as far as calling it worse than college-party-level planning. Is nobody expected to drive home after the event?
      - abought 3y ago
        At networking mixers I've attended, often there are a limited number of drink tickets per person and a set event duration. But the drink tickets only covered alcohol, not other beverages. In some cases, other beverages just weren't an option at all. ("I guess you could find a water fountain? But why?") Also, one of those recurring events was hosted at a startup that was, to be frank, known for "worse than college" level planning all around... Eventually events started getting better at providing options. Probably a mix of several factors: the move to another city (local culture), career growth/level of people around me, and changing social patterns. (increasing interest in non alcoholic options/ more people willing to speak up)
  - photochemsyn 3y ago
    There should be a (weak) mushroom tea alternative at such events, I think.
    - standardUser 3y ago
      Imagine if people could choose the intoxicant that works for them instead of having to default to booze.
    - anon25783 3y ago
      Taking psilocybin in a corporate setting sounds like a bad time imo, even at a low dose. Plus, there's always that one guy at the office Christmas party...
    - tpm 3y ago
      MDMA would be more appropriate.
      - xrd 3y ago
        That's not so far off from how silicon valley really worked in the halcyon days. Read "What the Door mouse said." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said
  - kzrdude 3y ago
    I avoid both coffee and refined sugar and then the list of alternatives really shrinks. Herbal tea is a good one of course, and in a bar one can often get pure apple juice.
    - iamacyborg 3y ago
      Wait, why is sugar bad but apple juice okay?
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        It’s not, it’s the same bad. Pediatricians try to drill this into parents.
        hollerith 3y ago
        Agreed. (And for some of us, whole apples also have too much sugar--as do most other fruits with whole raspberries and passionfruit being exceptions, and pureeing the raspberries or incorporating them into a smoothie is just as bad as juicing them.)
        iamacyborg 3y ago
        Unless you're diabetic I really don't understand how an apple could have too much sugar in it.
        hollerith 3y ago
        Most advice says to avoid sugar, but the sugar in fruit is OK (the advices goes) because the fiber in the fruit slows down the absorption of the sugar. Well, my experience has been that the sugar in fruit is not OK (even if the fruit has not been juiced or pureed or processed in any way). It is quite harmful to me, the largest harm being cognitive decline (Alzheimer's or such, I have yet to get a diagnosis). I have managed to stop and partially reverse my cognitive decline by only ever eating small quantities of carbs. A whole apple in one sittings is too much! (Some apples, such as the Granny Smith variety, have less than half the carbs of an average variety, but even a Granny Smith probably has too much for me to eat a whole apple in one sitting unless I'm doing a lot of physical labor that day, which is rare. It would be OK for me to cut up a Granny Smith and freeze the pieces and eat one fifth of an apple per meal, but I haven't bothered.) Fructose seems to be the worst carb for me, but I also limit the other carbs (glucose and starch) and one of my guesses as to why I need to do that is that if I eat more than about 12 to 20 g of carbs in any meal, a decent amount gets converted into fructose (e.g., by my liver). I believe that if I had more muscle mass, I could get away with eating more carbs (because my muscles would convert much of the glucose in my bloodstream to glycogen before my body could convert it to fructose) but it is hard for people my age to increase their muscle mass much. Note that I assiduously avoided refined sugar (e.g., molasses or monk fruit extract or any other refined sugar, by itself or added to processed foods) during the decades during which my cognitive decline was progessing, and that is was only after I started also avoiding fruits and honey (except for a few low-sugar fruits, which in my case are frozen raspberries and frozen passionfruit) and vegetables high in carbs (like winter squash, carrot juice and more than one or two carrots per meal) that I stopped and partially reversed my cognitive decline. I suspect that I'm far from the only one whose cognitive decline was caused by excessive consumption of carbs because of things I've read, e.g., https://news.cuanschutz.edu/news-stories/study-suggests-fructose-could-drive-alzheimers-disease https://news.cuanschutz.edu/news-stories/study-suggests-fruc... (People who advise avoiding carbs often extol the benefits of ketosis. I tried ketosis, but do not like it. I've seen things that say spending too much time in the ketotic state can damage the heart, and my heart starts doing funny things when I spend too much time in ketosis, so I eat enough carbs every day to avoid ketosis, which is not much carbs.)
  - rvba 3y ago
    Are there really? If we ignore alcohol. We have few groups: 1) Coffee / tea (caffeinated so many cant sleep after them) 2) Yerba mate (isnt it the same group as caffeinated drinks? Also availability is low) 3) sugary drinks (cola, fanta, soda..) - basically liquid diabetes 4) juices (they are sugary again even if other type of sugar) 5) milk (nobody sells / buys milk?) 6) water with lemon So if you want to sleep, dont want sugary drinks you are left with water with lemon.
    - standardUser 3y ago
      If you can tolerate a very tiny amount of alcohol, bitters with soda is a great cocktail substitute. There's also "hop water" beverages that I really like that have no calories.
      - matwood 3y ago
        Non-alcoholic beers have also gotten quite good.
        artyom 3y ago
        Second this. I love beer and hate alcohol and lately non-alcoholic beers (specially of blonde types) have become very high quality. Just avoid the over-industrialized ones, like you'd do with normal beers.
        hughesjj 3y ago
        Partake and athletic are amazing but my favorite is still asahi dry zero, just hard to find Also laguinitas hopwater is the bomb and I like it better than actual IPAs
        rdonahue 3y ago
        Try mixing some zero sugar lemonade w/ Hopwater. It's fantastic.
    - kzrdude 3y ago
  - tombert 3y ago
    I don't really do sugary drinks, so Diet Coke/Diet Pepsi is out as well. I also just actively dislike tea and coffee, so I don't really want to go with any kind of decaf version of those either. So yeah, if the bar has Diet 7-up or Diet Caffeine Free Coke, then I'm fine, but at least in the NYC area I've not really ever seen that at a bar. They're not even guaranteed to have them at grocery stores. As it stands, the one thing that basically every bar is guaranteed to have that's sugar free and caffeine free is water, so that's what I end up defaulting to. It feels a bit lame but I really like being able to sleep.
    - iamacyborg 3y ago
      There are quite a few decent alcohol free beers these days although they’re not sugar free.
    - addicted 3y ago
      Seltzer + lime is a fairly standard option. Bonus, it looks like an alcoholic drink if you’re a woman and don’t want to give the idea that you might be pregnant, which is an issue which women trying to grow in corporate situations face at events, when in reality they simply don’t like drinking and/or don’t want to be around a bunch of men getting hammered who may potentially have sway over their careers.
      - tombert 3y ago
        That's actually a really good idea. I'm not a woman so there's not much risk of people thinking I'm pregnant, but I could see some kind of lime seltzer being good and people could assume it's a gin and tonic or something. I might steal this.
    - xarope 3y ago
      I joke with bartenders and ask for fermented sky juice (good ol' water). They usually understand and smile. And yes, perrier or just soda with lime is also perfectly acceptable too.
- AniseAbyss 3y ago
  [dead]
- dnissley 3y ago
  My experience at a bigtechco where they have a weekly happy hour with free alcohol is that it's a pretty small minority that partakes (~20% out of the ~20% of in-office folks that attend these after work events). I've also never seen anyone have more than ~2-3 drinks total. The median number of drinks is 1 by far. This is all post-covid though, perhaps it was different in the before times.
  - kredd 3y ago
    About ~8 years ago, in one of my previous jobs, we would start around 4PM almost every other Friday in the office and go till about midnight or after. It really depends on the company, environment, and people. We even had non-drinkers tag along as well. Probably not the healthiest environment to be in, but it was fun while it lasted. I can't comment much about nowadays, as I haven't worked from an office since 2020. But from what I've heard, you're correct, those times are somewhat behind us in most of the companies.
  - solidsnack9000 3y ago
    In the before times, sometimes the drinking started on Thursday.
- al_borland 3y ago
  >I don't think it's ever directly hurt my chances of promotion or anything, but I do think it makes socializing harder. From what I’ve seen (in the US), people will frame in like it will hurt, because drinkers what to drink with other people, but competence wins out at the end of the day. Being around when decisions get made outside of the office can have an impact though, and it sounds like you’re still there for that. I used to go out with the smokers on their smoke break for the same reason. I didn’t smoke, but going out with them let me be part of the conversation that was sometimes social, but often turned to work and strategy.
  - tombert 3y ago
    Yeah, same, I would also hang out with smokers during their smoke break at a job, despite the fact that I have never really smoked [1]. At that job, most of the higher-ups smoked and I figured it might be useful to be part of the "under the table" discussions. [1] Outside of half a cigarette when I turned 18 which I thought was pretty gross.
genman 3y ago
In its extreme alcohol is a truth serum. The ones who don't drink want to keep their secrets to themselves and can't be trusted.
- MakeThemMoney 3y ago
  By that logic, the ones who don't drink should be handed the most secretive, important projects.
  - samatman 3y ago
    Whole lot of Mormons working for CIA and NSA. Just sayin.
    - refracture 3y ago
      Yeah but those same Mormons drink all the booze if there’s no other Mormons at the party.
      - neilv 3y ago
        That might be true in some cases, but I haven't seen it. The Mormons I've seen tend to be more healthy clean living, than anything else.
        refracture 3y ago
        It’s perhaps wrong of me to generalize but I’ve lived in Utah my whole life, some are clean and healthy others are unhealthy slobs, just like the general population. The whole ‘drank all the booze’ people are more often those pretending to believe in their faith because of the social repercussions of leaving it.
        euroderf 3y ago
        FWIW, Mormons make great babysitters.
  - 3y ago
nox101 3y ago
This presentation from the Long Now Foundation makes the proposition that drinking helps create society https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-and-civilization/ https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... > Drawing on evidence from archaeology, history, cognitive neuroscience, psychopharmacology, social psychology, literature, and genetics, Slingerland shows that our taste for chemical intoxicants is not an evolutionary mistake, as we are so often told. In fact, intoxication helps solve a number of distinctively human challenges: enhancing creativity, alleviating stress, building trust, and pulling off the miracle of getting fiercely tribal primates to cooperate with strangers. My experience was before lived in Asia (USA only) I thought drinking was bad (bar fights, drunk driving deaths, etc...) After living in Asia my entire attitude changed because I never saw a bar fight and I wasn't driving. Instead, drinking around food was a place to get to know people. Drama's showed people getting in arguments at work and then settling their differences at drinks after work. A recent anime had a line "drinking is healing" meant that's where you let go of your worries and you heal relationships.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36494466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36494466 (in western firms, compare "what gets said in Powerpoint" vs "what gets said on Slack")
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects. In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society. Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might actually make unmasking look like a fight, flight, fawn…
  - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
    > My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction Just a counterthought: If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego under influence than when they are sober.
ghusto 3y ago
> The Dutch and Israelis are famously direct. They don’t mind confrontation, so usually speak their mind and take no offence. By contrast, East Asians are more likely to value collective harmony. This means that they avoid direct confrontation, so artfully use be more subtle and diplomatic language. I don't see how speaking your mind is confrontational or at odds with "collective harmony". Intention is all that matters in my opinion. If you go in aiming to upset, then you're a dick and no amount of "diplomatic language" is going to make you not a dick. In fact, it will only make you more dickish, because now you're hiding behind word manipulation.
- Razengan 3y ago
  > I don't see how speaking your mind is confrontational or at odds with "collective harmony". Intention is all that matters in my opinion. Even in Western cultures, if you try saying something at odds with the "room" or the current bandwagon, like here on HN for example, you will feel the frowns coming your way.
  - ghusto 3y ago
    Meh, different life experiences then. I've never had any trouble with it. Then again I could be autistic and haven't noticed / cared. In a business setting, the room should bend to facts, not group-think.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > In a business setting, the room should bend to facts, not group-think. It should, sometimes, but ... Different people often have different beliefs about the facts. Sometimes there are higher priorities than the facts of the immediate issue. And most of all, in reality it doesn't work that way. Someone who acts as if it does is as incompetent as a developer who insists there's no such thing as platform constraints. We're dealing with humans, which includes all the constructs of human nature, culture, and personality. Your 'facts' may threaten someone's job, for example, or the CEO's reputation; do you expect they'll just go along with that?
larsrc 3y ago
For an interesting and humorous tour of drinking across history and cultures, read Mark Forsyth's "A Short History of Drunkenness". Getting hammered had been crucial, even sometimes obligatory, in many places throughout history.
zabzonk 3y ago
at one place i worked (big 6 accountants, back then) the final interview for new hires took place with the whole (small) team down the pub. no need to get drunk, or indeed to drink at all - just see how we got along. seemed to work well.
aragonite 3y ago
For the first few years of grad school (in the US) I skipped the weekly drinks night because I didn't drink and saw no reason to start drinking. In hindsight I rather regret that decision because as I later found out these were unique opportunities for profs (even normally very uptight or high strung ones!) and fellow grad students to unwind and share stories or anecdotes or tips that would never surface in any other context. Simply being there to listen would have been very enriching quite apart from the chance for personal bonding. (I do remember in later years some female grad students complained about it but the practice persisted). My experience of Chinese academia is rather limited but afiak weekly drinks night is not as much of a thing there.
- rancour 3y ago
  Honestly who gives a shit? This sounds like FOMO
tqi 3y ago
> A month ago, I didn’t know. Now, after my interviews with people in China and Korea, the answer is very obvious. I don't know if I think a month is sufficient time to make such concrete and definitive statements. In my experience, there is rarely a tidy explanation for something as complex as cultural norms - this feels more likely to be a "just so story" + hubris than the clear answer. American Finance and Consulting firms are extremely direct and confrontational, and their employees aren't exactly tee totalers. The article as a whole also felt like a value judgement on the relative merits of high / low context cultures...
kelnos 3y ago
I know I have my biases, cultural and otherwise, so I shouldn't say that one way is right and another is wrong, but... To me, this widely-acknowledged need to go get drunk with bosses, colleagues, and business associates in order to facilitate communication feels like a tacit admission that the reserved, low-confrontation, hierarchical communication styles are a hindrance, and that people would be better off being direct, (politely) confrontational, and egalitarian. And yes, I know that I say this as someone who is more used to the latter. But I, personally, am somewhat conflict-avoidant, and do couch my criticism in positive, flowery language (if I present that criticism at all) often. And frankly I don't like that, and think I'd be able to express myself better, to the benefit of both myself and whoever I'm talking to, if I could be more blunt and direct about these sorts of things. Honestly I just can't imagine living in Japanese or Korean society, having to conform to these sorts of conversational rules. I guess the thing that really gets to me is the hierarchical, automatic-respect-for-the-boss stuff. Respect is earned, not given just because someone promoted you. And regardless, I think the default should be one of greater familiarity. Clearly these other societies are able to function with whatever setup they've mutually agreed upon over centuries or millennia, so it's not like no one is able to communicate effectively. But it just seems so exhausting and stressful to me to have to act that way.
- tqi 3y ago
  > I know I have my biases, cultural and otherwise, so I shouldn't say that one way is right and another is wrong, but... I think the point of acknowledging biases is to correct them, not give carte blanche to lean into them.
yongjik 3y ago
I think the article gets some facts right, but in pursuit of a grand unifying theory of society, jumps too hastily to conclusion. As a South Korean living in the US, it reminds of me when some Koreans say: "Why do Americans do (X)? Guns. It's because they all have guns." (X can be a lot of things, including "Why do Americans smile so much?") Come on. You can't take a multi-generational social problem and distill it to a single cause like that.
resolutebat 3y ago
Bit of an aside, but that "low-high" context scale with the US proudly at the "tell it like it is" extreme left instantly reduces the credibility of any article where I see this. "That's an interesting idea and we should totally do lunch sometime" is Silicon Valley for "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard and never want to see you again".
- zone411 3y ago
  > Bit of an aside, but that "low-high" context scale with the US proudly at the "tell it like it is" extreme left instantly reduces the credibility of any article where I see this. Read further. Low context is not "telling it like it is." The U.S. is in the middle on direct-indirect negative feedback and in the middle on confrontational-avoids confrontation. The explanation of the meaning is the article too.
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    Meyer's scale claims that low-context means, and I quote, "Messages are expressed and understood at face value". The TFA goes on to say that "Americans are extremely direct, they say what they think." Which is bullshit. Sorry, I mean that's a great insight and I'd love to double-click on that, but in the interest of time let's take this offline.
kazinator 3y ago
> Why Do East Asian Firms Value Drinking? Lack of a history of Christian puritanism? America's historic relationship with alcohol was shaped by the loonies who fled there from Europe so they could left alone to practice their ascetic forms of Christianity. A lot of phenomena in Asia cannot be properly understood if you lose sight of the lack of Christianity. For instance, could you have a mainstream, pop-band consisting of prepubescent boys called "Sexy Zone" in the USA? LOL ...
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  What did they flee?
  - mint2 3y ago
    From Other flavors of Christianity that were persecuting them. Also the general poor conditions at the time.
- sceoom 3y ago
  East Asian countries aren't exactly known for their creative, sexual expression either
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    {{citation needed}} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Ping_Mei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Ping_Mei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carnal_Prayer_Mat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carnal_Prayer_Mat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman%27s_Wife https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman%27s...
    - kazinator 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanamara_Matsuri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanamara_Matsuri
- ecshafer 3y ago
nickdothutton 3y ago
Order a non-alcoholic drink? I do little work-related drinking these days but it is common to have male colleagues who do not consume alcohol, one assumes for either health or religious reasons. It would say for every group of 5 or more there tends to be at least 1.
crvdgc 3y ago
This is only partially true from my experience as a Chinese grew up in Northern China. I think a greater factor is deliberately causing pain or embarrassment. Like the initiation rites for fraternities or sororities, the pain is the point. The reason behind this is that a commonly shared embarrassing experience creates intimacy and loyalty. I'm more inclined to accept this theory over others including the one from the article, because it can explain many rules observable in the drinking culture (at least in Northern China). 1. It's rude to reject an invitation to drink together from a person with higher status. 2. When many people drink together, the more you drink, the greater respect you show to others. 3. As a consequence, the person with higher status can choose to drink less than others, or they can choose to drink the same to show greater respect. 4. People with lower status should proactively invite people with higher status to drink, in the order of their status. Therefore, in a typical drinking party (饭局), the people with lower status usually drink the most, often to the point of being unconscious or causing a scene, and that would show their loyalty. This was part of the job for government officials and those who work with them. And people could genuinely get pretty sick from alcohol consumption. Death from drinking is not uncommon. There was even a debate on how to divy up the legal punishment to the people at the same table when this occurred. And it's not a theoretical sophistication at all. Luckily, Xi has banned this as part of his anti-corruption campaign (八项规定, the Eight Rules), so it's less of an issue now. Furthermore, young people in China have moved passed the drinking culture as well. Back in the university, one can choose whether to drink or not, and when one drinks, any amount to their personal preference is acceptable. I should add that I don't drink at all, but I was often in a situation where I was supposed to drink and got asked a lot. That's why I sought an explanation for the drinking culture and I suspect that many people who participate in this culture can't explain it explicitly.
- popularonion 3y ago
  That’s a great point that everyone else is overlooking. The comparison is obvious if you have a little experience with frat culture. (I was never in one, but I went to a college where fraternities are a huge deal, and I never felt comfortable there. I packed my schedule with extra classes to get my degree and get out as soon as I could.)
- 3y ago
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Reading these kind of descriptions of asian societies always strikes me as them simply being behind. Societally or culturally. Of course the west still has a lot of these things like happy hour drinking and team events and even to some degree the adverse effects and exclusion of women, but not at the level described in the East -- because we already went thru this in like the 50s-80s. It's a partially old/solved thing. We removed the corporate weight of it and it's more of just a social thing, just part of general broader culture (which doesn't mean there is value in participation of course), and in turn, hopefully, women have been able to partake/avoid more problems etc. East Asia will perhaps grow out of it also.
tmnvix 3y ago
Related to this, I've often thought that the popularity of Karaoke in Japan and Korea is somehow related - it may provide a 'safe' environment to escape from the relatively strict social hierarchy and roles that are pervasive in these cultures.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Related from today: Women outnumber men in South Korea's sports stadiums https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39581711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39581711
tkgally 3y ago
The article engages in a bit too much overgeneralization for my taste: “Collective harmony and hierarchy are strongly idealised across East Asia,” “Americans are extremely direct,” etc. There’s a lot more social and individual diversity than statements like that suggest. One data point: I grew up in the U.S. but have lived in Japan for the past forty-one years. I freelanced for Japanese companies for my first two decades here, and I have worked in academia for the last two. In both contexts, socializing does indeed often involve alcohol. But I have had what I consider to be two successful careers here without ever drinking alcohol in my life. I have also known Japanese men who were successful in business and who did not drink at all. Yes, there are social situations where not drinking can be awkward. But, in my experience at least, if one just explains that one doesn’t drink, one can get through those situations without conflict or avoid them entirely without negative effects on one’s social life or career. Also anecdotally: Some of the biggest social drinkers I have known in Japan were Americans or Brits. For some of them, there seemed to be a negative correlation between drinking and business success.
- lawgimenez 3y ago
  I am from the Philippines and western expats are mostly the ones who gets dead drunk here. I guess they really liked our beers here, the atmosphere, the women, the beach, the value of money. I don’t drink too, antisocial and still having a pretty good career by ditching happy hours, and all those after work nonsense. This article is pretty bad nonetheless.
- jbm 3y ago
  Another anecdote from me too; I was working in Japan for 12 years, and a lot of it was as a self-employed IT consultant. I don't drink and I never drank ever and was fairly well off by the end of it all. This is not a rare situation anymore either; I know a lot of younger Japanese people who simply refuse to drink. It's no surprise either; alcohol is not cheap on excursions, and the company doesn't pay the bill very often anymore.
- jimbob45 3y ago
  Are Americans actually considered “extremely direct”? Any foreigners on here able to chime in on if that generalization rings true?
solidsnack9000 3y ago
Something about this article is incongruous. Consider the passage quoted below. (1) What could it mean to have a harmonious culture that is not inclusive? How could a culture be inclusive without fostering harmony between groups? (2) The author does not answer the question she asks -- -- directly, but the final sentence is a quote from a Korean woman: "We care about the opinion of others." Are we supposed to infer that Koreans have a non-inclusive culture because they care about the opinions of others? Does that even make sense? The contrast the author draws between cultural harmony and inclusive things is perhaps reliant on some specialized meaning of the terms -- the author is perhaps using them as terms of art -- but I suspect that the general reader will find the contrast itself contradictory. Why don’t women push for a more inclusive work culture? In societies that idealise collective harmony, challenging superiors can be deeply offensive. When chatting to two professionals in Seoul, I introduced a little role play. In a hypothetical company meeting, I politely put up my hand and said, “I would like to propose that we end our company drinking culture. When people drink, they may make mistakes, do things inadvertently, which can make others uncomfortable”. I spoke softly and gently; I really endeavoured to be placid. But my Korean friends were shocked. Sang-hee grimmaced, “It lacks nunchi”. Minjun (her male friend) was equally puzzled, “I would be amazed. I mean this positively. But why is that person imposing their views on others? Why don’t they just drop out?” (translated) To ease their discomfort, I suggested a more sympathetic story. “Let’s suppose her boss was drunk and put his hand on her thigh. She doesn’t want to confront her boss, but wants to solve it indirectly”. Sang-hee was still displeased, adding “We care about the opinion of others”.
nsonha 3y ago
"Asia" is too broad, the Japanese and Chinese are on the extreme side of this spectrum, but it's not like that in South East Asia and I'd imagine south asians to not even drink.
- mcmoor 3y ago
  By this point "Asia" as the entire continent is obsolete colloquially and also not useful. There's almost nothing uniting the entire region. People nowadays use "Asia" only to refer to East Asia, and I think they have a point.
  - nsonha 3y ago
    > People nowadays use "Asia" only to refer to East Asia. No, Asia in that sense often refers to East & South East Asia. People will use "East Asia" if they mean so.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
There is nothing like facing other cultures that makes you appreciate your own. The walking on eggshells, nobody clearly communicating, the complete and total waste of time on etiquette.
dr_kiszonka 3y ago
Dutch folks, what are you thoughts about the British — Dutch tables in this article?
- eszed 3y ago
  American, not Dutch, but lived in the UK for nearly a decade, and can attest to the [general] accuracy of the first two columns of the table, down to the precise phrases given. I lost one job, early in my stay, exactly because I hadn't yet figured out those social nuances. The "exit interview" there was rough: as directly as I've ever been spoken to in my life, to the point of verbal abuse. (Among other things mentioned: my habit of saying "sure", in place of "yes", was interpreted as tremendous rudeness.) Those people were mad as a box of frogs - many years later I worked, quite successfully, with a (British) person who'd likewise been employed by them, who concurred, and commisserated - but differing social expectations didn't help. Looking back, I think I alienated myself, though not nearly to that extent, in several other work / social situations for some of the same reasons. I learned, though (having a British romantic partner to "translate" was helpful), and became quite comfortable navigating things there, to the extent that eventually moving back to the US came with some culture shock. (Seriously, why do Americans talk SO DAMN LOUD in public?!?) Still, I'd prefer (even over the US defaults) to operate in cultural milieus as far to the left of all of those scales as possible.
daesik 3y ago
Based on my experience living in Korea, it appears that the country exhibits a collectivist culture. Collectivism emphasizes the importance of careful consideration in forming relationships, which can lead to significant stress. A key aspect of this culture is the desire to avoid causing inconvenience to others. Similarly, alcohol culture, akin to ice-breaking activities, serves as a means to alleviate tension in social interactions, making it a crucial cultural element in Korea.
space_oddity 3y ago
If you work a lot - you drink a lot (from my experience it sometimes a really helpful stress relief)
- avery17 3y ago
  Is it helpful though?

132 points by surprisetalk 3y ago

tus666 3y ago

[flagged]

crhulls 3y ago
I’m about as anti-woke as it gets but I want to give the author credit for a well thought out article. If I discount any writing from “the enemy” I’ll just reinforce my filter bubble. Are there specific things you didn’t agree with here?

tombert 3y ago

Even in the US, in tech firms, it's pretty common to have happy hours where everyone drinks a bit. I don't drink at all due to my sleep apnea, and don't even have caffeine after 1pm for the same reason, so I'm pretty much always in this kind of awkward position of sipping on a water throughout the night while coworkers get more and more inebriated. I don't think it's ever directly hurt my chances of promotion or anything, but I do think it makes socializing harder.

arccy 3y ago
there are plenty of other beverages that aren't alcoholic/caffeinated than just plain water
- cool_dude85 3y ago
  Do you think they would have a better time if they were drinking a sprite or something? Being with drunk people when you're sober is not fun for either party regardless.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    I think that depends on how ridiculous and uninhibited you can be when sober.
  - ofrzeta 3y ago
    Drinkers also don't like having teetotalers around them because of the bad conscience they induce.
    - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
      Speak for yourself. I am a fervent enjoyer of booze, and I feel absolutely nothing in the presence of people who don't drink. Partake in whatever you want to have a good time, be it a drink, or a smoke, or absolutely nothing and as long as you're happy, we'll get along a-okay.
    - parpfish 3y ago
      Another part of it is that (imo) one of the biggest boons from group drinking is that it builds trust by giving people something to bond over — you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group. Teetotalers might be there physically, but they’ve opted out of the shared experience of making themselves vulnerable.
      - tombert 3y ago
        I mean, I didn't really "opt out". I don't breath properly when I sleep, alcohol makes it worse, the doctor more or less made the decision for me. But I suppose alcohol is bad for basically everyone, and the others opt in to that risk as well.
      - gedy 3y ago
        > you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group. In west coast tech companies with young people of both sexes, I absolutely refuse to drink due to not wanting to be accused of harassment or inappropriate behavior. I'm not a creep, but am older and not really attractive and am treated to a different standard. Sounds paranoid but have had coworkers accused, penalized, or fired after these events.
        parpfish 3y ago
  - matwood 3y ago
    There’s a big range between sober and drunk. The key to work drinks/happy hour is go for a single drink and leave. You get the best parts of being social and avoid the vast majority of the issues that come from people drinking with colleagues.
- abought 3y ago
  Strange but true: I've been to a number of professional happy hours that offered free alcohol, but didn't provide other beverages. It got to the point that I started bringing my own water bottle to networking events, just in case. I'm a big fan of providing other beverage types. Being able to sip a soda etc from the same kind of container as everyone else goes a long way towards blending in.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    >Strange but true: I've been to a number of professional happy hours that offered free alcohol, but didn't provide other beverages. Failing to provide non-alcoholic drinks would be a faux pas even in Germany. It is indeed strange. I'd go as far as calling it worse than college-party-level planning. Is nobody expected to drive home after the event?
    - abought 3y ago
      At networking mixers I've attended, often there are a limited number of drink tickets per person and a set event duration. But the drink tickets only covered alcohol, not other beverages. In some cases, other beverages just weren't an option at all. ("I guess you could find a water fountain? But why?") Also, one of those recurring events was hosted at a startup that was, to be frank, known for "worse than college" level planning all around... Eventually events started getting better at providing options. Probably a mix of several factors: the move to another city (local culture), career growth/level of people around me, and changing social patterns. (increasing interest in non alcoholic options/ more people willing to speak up)
- photochemsyn 3y ago
  There should be a (weak) mushroom tea alternative at such events, I think.
  - standardUser 3y ago
    Imagine if people could choose the intoxicant that works for them instead of having to default to booze.
  - anon25783 3y ago
    Taking psilocybin in a corporate setting sounds like a bad time imo, even at a low dose. Plus, there's always that one guy at the office Christmas party...
  - tpm 3y ago
    MDMA would be more appropriate.
    - xrd 3y ago
      That's not so far off from how silicon valley really worked in the halcyon days. Read "What the Door mouse said." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said
- kzrdude 3y ago
  I avoid both coffee and refined sugar and then the list of alternatives really shrinks. Herbal tea is a good one of course, and in a bar one can often get pure apple juice.
  - iamacyborg 3y ago
    Wait, why is sugar bad but apple juice okay?
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      It’s not, it’s the same bad. Pediatricians try to drill this into parents.
      - hollerith 3y ago
        Agreed. (And for some of us, whole apples also have too much sugar--as do most other fruits with whole raspberries and passionfruit being exceptions, and pureeing the raspberries or incorporating them into a smoothie is just as bad as juicing them.)
        iamacyborg 3y ago
        Unless you're diabetic I really don't understand how an apple could have too much sugar in it.
        hollerith 3y ago
        Most advice says to avoid sugar, but the sugar in fruit is OK (the advices goes) because the fiber in the fruit slows down the absorption of the sugar. Well, my experience has been that the sugar in fruit is not OK (even if the fruit has not been juiced or pureed or processed in any way). It is quite harmful to me, the largest harm being cognitive decline (Alzheimer's or such, I have yet to get a diagnosis). I have managed to stop and partially reverse my cognitive decline by only ever eating small quantities of carbs. A whole apple in one sittings is too much! (Some apples, such as the Granny Smith variety, have less than half the carbs of an average variety, but even a Granny Smith probably has too much for me to eat a whole apple in one sitting unless I'm doing a lot of physical labor that day, which is rare. It would be OK for me to cut up a Granny Smith and freeze the pieces and eat one fifth of an apple per meal, but I haven't bothered.) Fructose seems to be the worst carb for me, but I also limit the other carbs (glucose and starch) and one of my guesses as to why I need to do that is that if I eat more than about 12 to 20 g of carbs in any meal, a decent amount gets converted into fructose (e.g., by my liver). I believe that if I had more muscle mass, I could get away with eating more carbs (because my muscles would convert much of the glucose in my bloodstream to glycogen before my body could convert it to fructose) but it is hard for people my age to increase their muscle mass much. Note that I assiduously avoided refined sugar (e.g., molasses or monk fruit extract or any other refined sugar, by itself or added to processed foods) during the decades during which my cognitive decline was progessing, and that is was only after I started also avoiding fruits and honey (except for a few low-sugar fruits, which in my case are frozen raspberries and frozen passionfruit) and vegetables high in carbs (like winter squash, carrot juice and more than one or two carrots per meal) that I stopped and partially reversed my cognitive decline. I suspect that I'm far from the only one whose cognitive decline was caused by excessive consumption of carbs because of things I've read, e.g., https://news.cuanschutz.edu/news-stories/study-suggests-fructose-could-drive-alzheimers-disease https://news.cuanschutz.edu/news-stories/study-suggests-fruc... (People who advise avoiding carbs often extol the benefits of ketosis. I tried ketosis, but do not like it. I've seen things that say spending too much time in the ketotic state can damage the heart, and my heart starts doing funny things when I spend too much time in ketosis, so I eat enough carbs every day to avoid ketosis, which is not much carbs.)
- rvba 3y ago
  Are there really? If we ignore alcohol. We have few groups: 1) Coffee / tea (caffeinated so many cant sleep after them) 2) Yerba mate (isnt it the same group as caffeinated drinks? Also availability is low) 3) sugary drinks (cola, fanta, soda..) - basically liquid diabetes 4) juices (they are sugary again even if other type of sugar) 5) milk (nobody sells / buys milk?) 6) water with lemon So if you want to sleep, dont want sugary drinks you are left with water with lemon.
  - standardUser 3y ago
    If you can tolerate a very tiny amount of alcohol, bitters with soda is a great cocktail substitute. There's also "hop water" beverages that I really like that have no calories.
    - matwood 3y ago
      Non-alcoholic beers have also gotten quite good.
      - artyom 3y ago
        Second this. I love beer and hate alcohol and lately non-alcoholic beers (specially of blonde types) have become very high quality. Just avoid the over-industrialized ones, like you'd do with normal beers.
      - hughesjj 3y ago
        Partake and athletic are amazing but my favorite is still asahi dry zero, just hard to find Also laguinitas hopwater is the bomb and I like it better than actual IPAs
        rdonahue 3y ago
        Try mixing some zero sugar lemonade w/ Hopwater. It's fantastic.
  - kzrdude 3y ago
- tombert 3y ago
  I don't really do sugary drinks, so Diet Coke/Diet Pepsi is out as well. I also just actively dislike tea and coffee, so I don't really want to go with any kind of decaf version of those either. So yeah, if the bar has Diet 7-up or Diet Caffeine Free Coke, then I'm fine, but at least in the NYC area I've not really ever seen that at a bar. They're not even guaranteed to have them at grocery stores. As it stands, the one thing that basically every bar is guaranteed to have that's sugar free and caffeine free is water, so that's what I end up defaulting to. It feels a bit lame but I really like being able to sleep.
  - iamacyborg 3y ago
    There are quite a few decent alcohol free beers these days although they’re not sugar free.
  - addicted 3y ago
    Seltzer + lime is a fairly standard option. Bonus, it looks like an alcoholic drink if you’re a woman and don’t want to give the idea that you might be pregnant, which is an issue which women trying to grow in corporate situations face at events, when in reality they simply don’t like drinking and/or don’t want to be around a bunch of men getting hammered who may potentially have sway over their careers.
    - tombert 3y ago
      That's actually a really good idea. I'm not a woman so there's not much risk of people thinking I'm pregnant, but I could see some kind of lime seltzer being good and people could assume it's a gin and tonic or something. I might steal this.
  - xarope 3y ago
    I joke with bartenders and ask for fermented sky juice (good ol' water). They usually understand and smile. And yes, perrier or just soda with lime is also perfectly acceptable too.
AniseAbyss 3y ago
[dead]
dnissley 3y ago
My experience at a bigtechco where they have a weekly happy hour with free alcohol is that it's a pretty small minority that partakes (~20% out of the ~20% of in-office folks that attend these after work events). I've also never seen anyone have more than ~2-3 drinks total. The median number of drinks is 1 by far. This is all post-covid though, perhaps it was different in the before times.
- kredd 3y ago
  About ~8 years ago, in one of my previous jobs, we would start around 4PM almost every other Friday in the office and go till about midnight or after. It really depends on the company, environment, and people. We even had non-drinkers tag along as well. Probably not the healthiest environment to be in, but it was fun while it lasted. I can't comment much about nowadays, as I haven't worked from an office since 2020. But from what I've heard, you're correct, those times are somewhat behind us in most of the companies.
- solidsnack9000 3y ago
  In the before times, sometimes the drinking started on Thursday.
al_borland 3y ago
>I don't think it's ever directly hurt my chances of promotion or anything, but I do think it makes socializing harder. From what I’ve seen (in the US), people will frame in like it will hurt, because drinkers what to drink with other people, but competence wins out at the end of the day. Being around when decisions get made outside of the office can have an impact though, and it sounds like you’re still there for that. I used to go out with the smokers on their smoke break for the same reason. I didn’t smoke, but going out with them let me be part of the conversation that was sometimes social, but often turned to work and strategy.
- tombert 3y ago
  Yeah, same, I would also hang out with smokers during their smoke break at a job, despite the fact that I have never really smoked [1]. At that job, most of the higher-ups smoked and I figured it might be useful to be part of the "under the table" discussions. [1] Outside of half a cigarette when I turned 18 which I thought was pretty gross.

genman 3y ago

In its extreme alcohol is a truth serum. The ones who don't drink want to keep their secrets to themselves and can't be trusted.

MakeThemMoney 3y ago
By that logic, the ones who don't drink should be handed the most secretive, important projects.
- samatman 3y ago
  Whole lot of Mormons working for CIA and NSA. Just sayin.
  - refracture 3y ago
    Yeah but those same Mormons drink all the booze if there’s no other Mormons at the party.
    - neilv 3y ago
      That might be true in some cases, but I haven't seen it. The Mormons I've seen tend to be more healthy clean living, than anything else.
      - refracture 3y ago
        It’s perhaps wrong of me to generalize but I’ve lived in Utah my whole life, some are clean and healthy others are unhealthy slobs, just like the general population. The whole ‘drank all the booze’ people are more often those pretending to believe in their faith because of the social repercussions of leaving it.
      - euroderf 3y ago
        FWIW, Mormons make great babysitters.
- 3y ago

nox101 3y ago

This presentation from the Long Now Foundation makes the proposition that drinking helps create society https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-and-civilization/ https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... > Drawing on evidence from archaeology, history, cognitive neuroscience, psychopharmacology, social psychology, literature, and genetics, Slingerland shows that our taste for chemical intoxicants is not an evolutionary mistake, as we are so often told. In fact, intoxication helps solve a number of distinctively human challenges: enhancing creativity, alleviating stress, building trust, and pulling off the miracle of getting fiercely tribal primates to cooperate with strangers. My experience was before lived in Asia (USA only) I thought drinking was bad (bar fights, drunk driving deaths, etc...) After living in Asia my entire attitude changed because I never saw a bar fight and I wasn't driving. Instead, drinking around food was a place to get to know people. Drama's showed people getting in arguments at work and then settling their differences at drinks after work. A recent anime had a line "drinking is healing" meant that's where you let go of your worries and you heal relationships.

082349872349872 3y ago
see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36494466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36494466 (in western firms, compare "what gets said in Powerpoint" vs "what gets said on Slack")
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress (more broadly ego attachments) which enables a ego reduction and more incentive to unmask and resultant follow on effects. In the best case, this allows for social vulnerability that leads to trust and trust is the basis for society. Note that for some people, they are deep into traumatic fear stress that inebriation might actually make unmasking look like a fight, flight, fawn…
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction Just a counterthought: If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego under influence than when they are sober.

ghusto 3y ago

> The Dutch and Israelis are famously direct. They don’t mind confrontation, so usually speak their mind and take no offence. By contrast, East Asians are more likely to value collective harmony. This means that they avoid direct confrontation, so artfully use be more subtle and diplomatic language. I don't see how speaking your mind is confrontational or at odds with "collective harmony". Intention is all that matters in my opinion. If you go in aiming to upset, then you're a dick and no amount of "diplomatic language" is going to make you not a dick. In fact, it will only make you more dickish, because now you're hiding behind word manipulation.

Razengan 3y ago
> I don't see how speaking your mind is confrontational or at odds with "collective harmony". Intention is all that matters in my opinion. Even in Western cultures, if you try saying something at odds with the "room" or the current bandwagon, like here on HN for example, you will feel the frowns coming your way.
- ghusto 3y ago
  Meh, different life experiences then. I've never had any trouble with it. Then again I could be autistic and haven't noticed / cared. In a business setting, the room should bend to facts, not group-think.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > In a business setting, the room should bend to facts, not group-think. It should, sometimes, but ... Different people often have different beliefs about the facts. Sometimes there are higher priorities than the facts of the immediate issue. And most of all, in reality it doesn't work that way. Someone who acts as if it does is as incompetent as a developer who insists there's no such thing as platform constraints. We're dealing with humans, which includes all the constructs of human nature, culture, and personality. Your 'facts' may threaten someone's job, for example, or the CEO's reputation; do you expect they'll just go along with that?

larsrc 3y ago

For an interesting and humorous tour of drinking across history and cultures, read Mark Forsyth's "A Short History of Drunkenness". Getting hammered had been crucial, even sometimes obligatory, in many places throughout history.

zabzonk 3y ago

at one place i worked (big 6 accountants, back then) the final interview for new hires took place with the whole (small) team down the pub. no need to get drunk, or indeed to drink at all - just see how we got along. seemed to work well.

aragonite 3y ago

For the first few years of grad school (in the US) I skipped the weekly drinks night because I didn't drink and saw no reason to start drinking. In hindsight I rather regret that decision because as I later found out these were unique opportunities for profs (even normally very uptight or high strung ones!) and fellow grad students to unwind and share stories or anecdotes or tips that would never surface in any other context. Simply being there to listen would have been very enriching quite apart from the chance for personal bonding. (I do remember in later years some female grad students complained about it but the practice persisted). My experience of Chinese academia is rather limited but afiak weekly drinks night is not as much of a thing there.

rancour 3y ago
Honestly who gives a shit? This sounds like FOMO

tqi 3y ago

> A month ago, I didn’t know. Now, after my interviews with people in China and Korea, the answer is very obvious. I don't know if I think a month is sufficient time to make such concrete and definitive statements. In my experience, there is rarely a tidy explanation for something as complex as cultural norms - this feels more likely to be a "just so story" + hubris than the clear answer. American Finance and Consulting firms are extremely direct and confrontational, and their employees aren't exactly tee totalers. The article as a whole also felt like a value judgement on the relative merits of high / low context cultures...

kelnos 3y ago

I know I have my biases, cultural and otherwise, so I shouldn't say that one way is right and another is wrong, but... To me, this widely-acknowledged need to go get drunk with bosses, colleagues, and business associates in order to facilitate communication feels like a tacit admission that the reserved, low-confrontation, hierarchical communication styles are a hindrance, and that people would be better off being direct, (politely) confrontational, and egalitarian. And yes, I know that I say this as someone who is more used to the latter. But I, personally, am somewhat conflict-avoidant, and do couch my criticism in positive, flowery language (if I present that criticism at all) often. And frankly I don't like that, and think I'd be able to express myself better, to the benefit of both myself and whoever I'm talking to, if I could be more blunt and direct about these sorts of things. Honestly I just can't imagine living in Japanese or Korean society, having to conform to these sorts of conversational rules. I guess the thing that really gets to me is the hierarchical, automatic-respect-for-the-boss stuff. Respect is earned, not given just because someone promoted you. And regardless, I think the default should be one of greater familiarity. Clearly these other societies are able to function with whatever setup they've mutually agreed upon over centuries or millennia, so it's not like no one is able to communicate effectively. But it just seems so exhausting and stressful to me to have to act that way.

tqi 3y ago
> I know I have my biases, cultural and otherwise, so I shouldn't say that one way is right and another is wrong, but... I think the point of acknowledging biases is to correct them, not give carte blanche to lean into them.

yongjik 3y ago

I think the article gets some facts right, but in pursuit of a grand unifying theory of society, jumps too hastily to conclusion. As a South Korean living in the US, it reminds of me when some Koreans say: "Why do Americans do (X)? Guns. It's because they all have guns." (X can be a lot of things, including "Why do Americans smile so much?") Come on. You can't take a multi-generational social problem and distill it to a single cause like that.

resolutebat 3y ago

Bit of an aside, but that "low-high" context scale with the US proudly at the "tell it like it is" extreme left instantly reduces the credibility of any article where I see this. "That's an interesting idea and we should totally do lunch sometime" is Silicon Valley for "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard and never want to see you again".

zone411 3y ago
> Bit of an aside, but that "low-high" context scale with the US proudly at the "tell it like it is" extreme left instantly reduces the credibility of any article where I see this. Read further. Low context is not "telling it like it is." The U.S. is in the middle on direct-indirect negative feedback and in the middle on confrontational-avoids confrontation. The explanation of the meaning is the article too.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Meyer's scale claims that low-context means, and I quote, "Messages are expressed and understood at face value". The TFA goes on to say that "Americans are extremely direct, they say what they think." Which is bullshit. Sorry, I mean that's a great insight and I'd love to double-click on that, but in the interest of time let's take this offline.

kazinator 3y ago

> Why Do East Asian Firms Value Drinking? Lack of a history of Christian puritanism? America's historic relationship with alcohol was shaped by the loonies who fled there from Europe so they could left alone to practice their ascetic forms of Christianity. A lot of phenomena in Asia cannot be properly understood if you lose sight of the lack of Christianity. For instance, could you have a mainstream, pop-band consisting of prepubescent boys called "Sexy Zone" in the USA? LOL ...

friend_and_foe 3y ago
What did they flee?
- mint2 3y ago
  From Other flavors of Christianity that were persecuting them. Also the general poor conditions at the time.
sceoom 3y ago
East Asian countries aren't exactly known for their creative, sexual expression either
- resolutebat 3y ago
  {{citation needed}} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Ping_Mei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Ping_Mei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carnal_Prayer_Mat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carnal_Prayer_Mat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman%27s_Wife https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman%27s...
  - kazinator 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanamara_Matsuri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanamara_Matsuri
ecshafer 3y ago

nickdothutton 3y ago

Order a non-alcoholic drink? I do little work-related drinking these days but it is common to have male colleagues who do not consume alcohol, one assumes for either health or religious reasons. It would say for every group of 5 or more there tends to be at least 1.

crvdgc 3y ago

This is only partially true from my experience as a Chinese grew up in Northern China. I think a greater factor is deliberately causing pain or embarrassment. Like the initiation rites for fraternities or sororities, the pain is the point. The reason behind this is that a commonly shared embarrassing experience creates intimacy and loyalty. I'm more inclined to accept this theory over others including the one from the article, because it can explain many rules observable in the drinking culture (at least in Northern China). 1. It's rude to reject an invitation to drink together from a person with higher status. 2. When many people drink together, the more you drink, the greater respect you show to others. 3. As a consequence, the person with higher status can choose to drink less than others, or they can choose to drink the same to show greater respect. 4. People with lower status should proactively invite people with higher status to drink, in the order of their status. Therefore, in a typical drinking party (饭局), the people with lower status usually drink the most, often to the point of being unconscious or causing a scene, and that would show their loyalty. This was part of the job for government officials and those who work with them. And people could genuinely get pretty sick from alcohol consumption. Death from drinking is not uncommon. There was even a debate on how to divy up the legal punishment to the people at the same table when this occurred. And it's not a theoretical sophistication at all. Luckily, Xi has banned this as part of his anti-corruption campaign (八项规定, the Eight Rules), so it's less of an issue now. Furthermore, young people in China have moved passed the drinking culture as well. Back in the university, one can choose whether to drink or not, and when one drinks, any amount to their personal preference is acceptable. I should add that I don't drink at all, but I was often in a situation where I was supposed to drink and got asked a lot. That's why I sought an explanation for the drinking culture and I suspect that many people who participate in this culture can't explain it explicitly.

popularonion 3y ago
That’s a great point that everyone else is overlooking. The comparison is obvious if you have a little experience with frat culture. (I was never in one, but I went to a college where fraternities are a huge deal, and I never felt comfortable there. I packed my schedule with extra classes to get my degree and get out as soon as I could.)
3y ago

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Reading these kind of descriptions of asian societies always strikes me as them simply being behind. Societally or culturally. Of course the west still has a lot of these things like happy hour drinking and team events and even to some degree the adverse effects and exclusion of women, but not at the level described in the East -- because we already went thru this in like the 50s-80s. It's a partially old/solved thing. We removed the corporate weight of it and it's more of just a social thing, just part of general broader culture (which doesn't mean there is value in participation of course), and in turn, hopefully, women have been able to partake/avoid more problems etc. East Asia will perhaps grow out of it also.

tmnvix 3y ago

Related to this, I've often thought that the popularity of Karaoke in Japan and Korea is somehow related - it may provide a 'safe' environment to escape from the relatively strict social hierarchy and roles that are pervasive in these cultures.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Related from today: Women outnumber men in South Korea's sports stadiums https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39581711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39581711

tkgally 3y ago

The article engages in a bit too much overgeneralization for my taste: “Collective harmony and hierarchy are strongly idealised across East Asia,” “Americans are extremely direct,” etc. There’s a lot more social and individual diversity than statements like that suggest. One data point: I grew up in the U.S. but have lived in Japan for the past forty-one years. I freelanced for Japanese companies for my first two decades here, and I have worked in academia for the last two. In both contexts, socializing does indeed often involve alcohol. But I have had what I consider to be two successful careers here without ever drinking alcohol in my life. I have also known Japanese men who were successful in business and who did not drink at all. Yes, there are social situations where not drinking can be awkward. But, in my experience at least, if one just explains that one doesn’t drink, one can get through those situations without conflict or avoid them entirely without negative effects on one’s social life or career. Also anecdotally: Some of the biggest social drinkers I have known in Japan were Americans or Brits. For some of them, there seemed to be a negative correlation between drinking and business success.

lawgimenez 3y ago
I am from the Philippines and western expats are mostly the ones who gets dead drunk here. I guess they really liked our beers here, the atmosphere, the women, the beach, the value of money. I don’t drink too, antisocial and still having a pretty good career by ditching happy hours, and all those after work nonsense. This article is pretty bad nonetheless.
jbm 3y ago
Another anecdote from me too; I was working in Japan for 12 years, and a lot of it was as a self-employed IT consultant. I don't drink and I never drank ever and was fairly well off by the end of it all. This is not a rare situation anymore either; I know a lot of younger Japanese people who simply refuse to drink. It's no surprise either; alcohol is not cheap on excursions, and the company doesn't pay the bill very often anymore.
jimbob45 3y ago
Are Americans actually considered “extremely direct”? Any foreigners on here able to chime in on if that generalization rings true?

solidsnack9000 3y ago

Something about this article is incongruous. Consider the passage quoted below. (1) What could it mean to have a harmonious culture that is not inclusive? How could a culture be inclusive without fostering harmony between groups? (2) The author does not answer the question she asks -- -- directly, but the final sentence is a quote from a Korean woman: "We care about the opinion of others." Are we supposed to infer that Koreans have a non-inclusive culture because they care about the opinions of others? Does that even make sense? The contrast the author draws between cultural harmony and inclusive things is perhaps reliant on some specialized meaning of the terms -- the author is perhaps using them as terms of art -- but I suspect that the general reader will find the contrast itself contradictory. Why don’t women push for a more inclusive work culture? In societies that idealise collective harmony, challenging superiors can be deeply offensive. When chatting to two professionals in Seoul, I introduced a little role play. In a hypothetical company meeting, I politely put up my hand and said, “I would like to propose that we end our company drinking culture. When people drink, they may make mistakes, do things inadvertently, which can make others uncomfortable”. I spoke softly and gently; I really endeavoured to be placid. But my Korean friends were shocked. Sang-hee grimmaced, “It lacks nunchi”. Minjun (her male friend) was equally puzzled, “I would be amazed. I mean this positively. But why is that person imposing their views on others? Why don’t they just drop out?” (translated) To ease their discomfort, I suggested a more sympathetic story. “Let’s suppose her boss was drunk and put his hand on her thigh. She doesn’t want to confront her boss, but wants to solve it indirectly”. Sang-hee was still displeased, adding “We care about the opinion of others”.

nsonha 3y ago

"Asia" is too broad, the Japanese and Chinese are on the extreme side of this spectrum, but it's not like that in South East Asia and I'd imagine south asians to not even drink.

mcmoor 3y ago
By this point "Asia" as the entire continent is obsolete colloquially and also not useful. There's almost nothing uniting the entire region. People nowadays use "Asia" only to refer to East Asia, and I think they have a point.
- nsonha 3y ago
  > People nowadays use "Asia" only to refer to East Asia. No, Asia in that sense often refers to East & South East Asia. People will use "East Asia" if they mean so.

WeylandYutani 3y ago

There is nothing like facing other cultures that makes you appreciate your own. The walking on eggshells, nobody clearly communicating, the complete and total waste of time on etiquette.

dr_kiszonka 3y ago

Dutch folks, what are you thoughts about the British — Dutch tables in this article?

eszed 3y ago
American, not Dutch, but lived in the UK for nearly a decade, and can attest to the [general] accuracy of the first two columns of the table, down to the precise phrases given. I lost one job, early in my stay, exactly because I hadn't yet figured out those social nuances. The "exit interview" there was rough: as directly as I've ever been spoken to in my life, to the point of verbal abuse. (Among other things mentioned: my habit of saying "sure", in place of "yes", was interpreted as tremendous rudeness.) Those people were mad as a box of frogs - many years later I worked, quite successfully, with a (British) person who'd likewise been employed by them, who concurred, and commisserated - but differing social expectations didn't help. Looking back, I think I alienated myself, though not nearly to that extent, in several other work / social situations for some of the same reasons. I learned, though (having a British romantic partner to "translate" was helpful), and became quite comfortable navigating things there, to the extent that eventually moving back to the US came with some culture shock. (Seriously, why do Americans talk SO DAMN LOUD in public?!?) Still, I'd prefer (even over the US defaults) to operate in cultural milieus as far to the left of all of those scales as possible.

daesik 3y ago

Based on my experience living in Korea, it appears that the country exhibits a collectivist culture. Collectivism emphasizes the importance of careful consideration in forming relationships, which can lead to significant stress. A key aspect of this culture is the desire to avoid causing inconvenience to others. Similarly, alcohol culture, akin to ice-breaking activities, serves as a means to alleviate tension in social interactions, making it a crucial cultural element in Korea.

space_oddity 3y ago

If you work a lot - you drink a lot (from my experience it sometimes a really helpful stress relief)

avery17 3y ago
Is it helpful though?