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The key distinction lies in how YieldStar approaches setting rental prices compared to other systems. YieldStar not only recommends rental prices by analyzing t

The key distinction lies in how YieldStar approaches setting rental prices compared to other systems. YieldStar not only recommends rental prices by analyzing the entire inventory it oversees but also incorporates a strategy that effectively eliminates the possibility of rent negotiation with potential tenants. This approach mirrors the dynamics of the prisoner’s dilemma, a situation in game theory where individuals may not cooperate, even if it’s in their best interest to do so. However, YieldStar transcends the Nash equilibrium—the point at which no participant can benefit by changing strategies if the others remain unchanged—by stripping tenants of any bargaining power. This ensures that the rent pricing strategy is firmly controlled, without the usual back-and-forth negotiation process.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
The only way you can productively refuse negotiation is by knowing the price is fixed (or you have the only supply), otherwise others will take your business.
- jprete 3y ago
  If it's widely believed that other landlords use the same pricing system as you, then that's exactly how landlords can refuse to negotiate.
samatman 3y ago
This is a strange claim. How is it that software can eliminate the possibility of rent negotiation? A tenant can negotiate, or try to. How does software eliminate the possibility that this will succeed?
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  Because the software has set the price and the landlords are using the software's price exclusively. That is why it's price fixing.
  - chii 3y ago
    to me, it's not enough to show that the same algorithm or software is deciding the price. It has to be that there's some threat of punishment from the cartel against those who would lower their price from the agreed one. For example, the explicit agreement by the landlord to keep the price at the algorithmicaly calculated one, even so far as to leave vacancy (where as there wouldn't have been a vacancy if the price was lowered).
    - radicality 3y ago
      There is. I forget the number, but the landlords are only allowed to disagree with the software (and give lower rent) only ~10% or so of the time. Otherwise they will be kicked off of the price fixing platform.
      - samatman 3y ago
        Why isn't that clearly stated in the FTC brief? That's a hell of an absence of evidence, under the circumstances. If there's a smoking gun, why leave it out?
- cogman10 3y ago
  It's the scope and breadth of deployment and the algorithm/business pressures. > RealPage discourages bargaining with renters and has even recommended that landlords in some cases accept a lower occupancy rate in order to raise rents and make more money. This is the key to why it's price fixing. Everyone playing ball and means that the raising rent rates increases everyone's take home even if a few operate with lower occupancy. The software calculates rent rates that make sure occupancy isn't too low to keep everyone in line. It removes bargaining with the promise that "if you play ball, you'll be rich". Tenants can negotiate prices just like you can theoretically haggle with amazon.
  - Aunche 3y ago
    > RealPage discourages bargaining with renters and has even recommended that landlords in some cases accept a lower occupancy rate in order to raise rents and make more money. Of course they would discourage them from deviating from Realpage's recommendation. Why are you paying for a software that recommends the most profitable rent if you aren't going to follow it? Realpage doesn't want property managers to complain that the software isn't working when they're ignoring the software's recommendations. I have yet to see any evidence that there are any actual consequences of ignoring the recommendations. I'm assuming that Realpage will always accept payment for their services. This suggests that price fixing is unlikely. In the case of a cartel, members are incentivized to sell more than their quota allows, and you need active enforcement to maintain compliance. See the history of OPEC.
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      Consequences involve being kicked off the service with no refund for the (significant) fees.
      - Aunche 3y ago
        Where does it say that? If it's something on the contract, you'd think that the FTC would open with that rather than vaguely imply this this happening.
    - 3y ago
- treis 3y ago
  This sounds like denying the existence of price fixing altogether. Sure, buyers can try to negotiate against a price fixing scheme but it won't work. The price is fixed. The software isn't really doing anything. It's simply the means of communication by which the prices are fixed amongst the suppliers.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    > The software isn't really doing anything. It's simply the means of communication by which the prices are fixed amongst the suppliers. The software literally includes the algorithm that says "this week, you will set the rate for this apartment at $X" based on its data. And if you want to deviate from that, without being kicked off, and losing your substantial fee payment, you will do that rate (and they will check), or you can "request an override" from RealPage, that they may allow or deny at their discretion (and RP agents are formally trained that override approvals may not exceed 5% of requests).
    - tsimionescu 3y ago
      Even if they didn't kick you off, they would still be engaging in price fixing. They would be worse at actually changing prices with their scheme, but badly executed, ineffective price fixing is still illegal.
    - lupire 3y ago
      Can you link to info on that feature of the software?
- koliber 3y ago
  It might not remove the possibility of negotiation. If it reduces the likelihood of negotiation, the impact is similar.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago

The only way you can productively refuse negotiation is by knowing the price is fixed (or you have the only supply), otherwise others will take your business.

jprete 3y ago
If it's widely believed that other landlords use the same pricing system as you, then that's exactly how landlords can refuse to negotiate.

samatman 3y ago

This is a strange claim. How is it that software can eliminate the possibility of rent negotiation? A tenant can negotiate, or try to. How does software eliminate the possibility that this will succeed?

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
Because the software has set the price and the landlords are using the software's price exclusively. That is why it's price fixing.
- chii 3y ago
  to me, it's not enough to show that the same algorithm or software is deciding the price. It has to be that there's some threat of punishment from the cartel against those who would lower their price from the agreed one. For example, the explicit agreement by the landlord to keep the price at the algorithmicaly calculated one, even so far as to leave vacancy (where as there wouldn't have been a vacancy if the price was lowered).
  - radicality 3y ago
    There is. I forget the number, but the landlords are only allowed to disagree with the software (and give lower rent) only ~10% or so of the time. Otherwise they will be kicked off of the price fixing platform.
    - samatman 3y ago
      Why isn't that clearly stated in the FTC brief? That's a hell of an absence of evidence, under the circumstances. If there's a smoking gun, why leave it out?
cogman10 3y ago
It's the scope and breadth of deployment and the algorithm/business pressures. > RealPage discourages bargaining with renters and has even recommended that landlords in some cases accept a lower occupancy rate in order to raise rents and make more money. This is the key to why it's price fixing. Everyone playing ball and means that the raising rent rates increases everyone's take home even if a few operate with lower occupancy. The software calculates rent rates that make sure occupancy isn't too low to keep everyone in line. It removes bargaining with the promise that "if you play ball, you'll be rich". Tenants can negotiate prices just like you can theoretically haggle with amazon.
- Aunche 3y ago
  > RealPage discourages bargaining with renters and has even recommended that landlords in some cases accept a lower occupancy rate in order to raise rents and make more money. Of course they would discourage them from deviating from Realpage's recommendation. Why are you paying for a software that recommends the most profitable rent if you aren't going to follow it? Realpage doesn't want property managers to complain that the software isn't working when they're ignoring the software's recommendations. I have yet to see any evidence that there are any actual consequences of ignoring the recommendations. I'm assuming that Realpage will always accept payment for their services. This suggests that price fixing is unlikely. In the case of a cartel, members are incentivized to sell more than their quota allows, and you need active enforcement to maintain compliance. See the history of OPEC.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Consequences involve being kicked off the service with no refund for the (significant) fees.
    - Aunche 3y ago
      Where does it say that? If it's something on the contract, you'd think that the FTC would open with that rather than vaguely imply this this happening.
  - 3y ago
treis 3y ago
This sounds like denying the existence of price fixing altogether. Sure, buyers can try to negotiate against a price fixing scheme but it won't work. The price is fixed. The software isn't really doing anything. It's simply the means of communication by which the prices are fixed amongst the suppliers.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > The software isn't really doing anything. It's simply the means of communication by which the prices are fixed amongst the suppliers. The software literally includes the algorithm that says "this week, you will set the rate for this apartment at $X" based on its data. And if you want to deviate from that, without being kicked off, and losing your substantial fee payment, you will do that rate (and they will check), or you can "request an override" from RealPage, that they may allow or deny at their discretion (and RP agents are formally trained that override approvals may not exceed 5% of requests).
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    Even if they didn't kick you off, they would still be engaging in price fixing. They would be worse at actually changing prices with their scheme, but badly executed, ineffective price fixing is still illegal.
  - lupire 3y ago
    Can you link to info on that feature of the software?
koliber 3y ago
It might not remove the possibility of negotiation. If it reduces the likelihood of negotiation, the impact is similar.