5 ms·

> not the driving force behind the cost Great. Socialize healthcare as the current non-single-payor market is forcing all sorts of market distortions in unrela

by tomrod 3y ago

> not the driving force behind the cost Great. Socialize healthcare as the current non-single-payor market is forcing all sorts of market distortions in unrelated markets, AND fix the price fixing. Win win win. ED: adding clarity for the call for socializing healthcare to dampen the massive price distortions in other markets.

timy2shoes 3y ago
> Socialize healthcare as it is forcing all sorts of market distortions I don't understand how you come to this conclusion. Can you explain?
- morkalork 3y ago
  It makes sense with some extra punctuation: Great. Socialize healthcare. As it, is blah blah. If you want even cheaper car insurance, you can even go beyond socialized healthcare. You can have socialized car insurance! Or in some cases a hybrid system where you insure your vehicle but not all trauma and damage to the other party. But I don't think Americans would be a-okay with seeing a government employed doctor when they make their injury claims. Even if outcomes are better than a purely private system.
- margalabargala 3y ago
  If a large portion of the cost of auto insurance is to pay for potential injuries to someone that you hit, then we can conclude 1) single-payer healthcare would significantly lower the cost of auto insurance, and conversely, 2) the lack of single-payer healthcare is a significant contributor to the current state of auto insurance markets/pricing.
  - timy2shoes 3y ago
    I completely agree with your assessment and logic, but the parent posted suggested that socialization of healthcare (e.g. ObamaCare) is contributing to auto rates. That I don't understand.
    - margalabargala 3y ago
      Looking again, I think their comment can be parsed in multiple ways. > Socialize healthcare as it is forcing all sorts of market distortions in unrelated markets I interpreted that as a call to socialize healthcare, not a description of market effects that "socialized healthcare" has to the extent that exists in the US.
      - tomrod 3y ago
        Your interpretation of what I posted is correct. My apologies for the lack of clarity. Comment has been edited.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    No, because injury claims also include lost income, compensation for disability, pain and suffering, etc. not just medical expenses.
maxboone 3y ago
Healthcare is socialized in Europe and car insurance is still similarly priced (750 - 1500 per year, average in NL is 950 per car for only liability) mostly due to liability costs. Required insurance covers € 7.5 million for personal injury, € 2.5 million for property damages. Edit: P.S. I am in favor of single-payer healthcare, I just don't think that is the particular cause of expensive liability car insurance - rather personal injury and property damages would seem a larger driver to me.
- margalabargala 3y ago
  This is interesting to me, an American unfamiliar with European systems. > Required insurance covers € 7.5 million for personal injury So in Europe (or at least some parts of Europe with otherwise socialized healthcare?), if someone is injured in a car accident, their medical bills are paid for by the insurance of the person who hit them, and not that country's single-payer system?
  - maxboone 3y ago
    No, those are not billed to the person who caused the injury. The personal injury part is meant to compensate for personal injury, such as "compensation" for becoming unable to work, or live the same way as before.
  - InsomniacL 3y ago
    The injured party may decide to receive treatment though a private facilitate and recoup the cost from the insurer. Regardless, if I loose my leg through the negligence of someone else, paying for the amputation isn't going to make me 'whole' again. you'd have to put a literal price on my leg.
    - tomrod 3y ago
      I believe the phrase of art for this is value of statistical life.
  - orwin 3y ago
    I think in my country, the single-payer system is still linked to an individual, by his social security number, so the culprit's insurance will "pay", even though what will be paid in healthcare will mostly be aestethics or other non-reimbursable. But mainly, it will pay for damages. In my country, f you are hurt in a car accident, you can be paid depending on your average salary and invalidity percentage, called an "invalidity rent". If docotr estimate you're invalid at 80%, you'll get paid 80% of your last month salary until they check on you again, then if you're 40% invalid its 40% of your salary (before the accident, even if it was years before)... up until you're fine. I think they have to give you at least 10% as long as you have sequellas, even minor ones. That, plus fixed damages (between 5k and like 40k). It isn't perfect. It doesn't take into account missed career oportunities, inflation, the pain, or mental issues. But you can work besides the money they give you, and oftentime, you'll get the 10% for a long time, because paresthesias (whatever that thing is spelled in english) and small sequellas can stay for a long time (I know soemone who earn roughly 200€ per month, but she has trouble working in most kitchens now. She used the main check to get into academia though, and will probably end up with a master's degree for her troubles).

by tomrod 3y ago

timy2shoes 3y ago

> Socialize healthcare as it is forcing all sorts of market distortions I don't understand how you come to this conclusion. Can you explain?

morkalork 3y ago
It makes sense with some extra punctuation: Great. Socialize healthcare. As it, is blah blah. If you want even cheaper car insurance, you can even go beyond socialized healthcare. You can have socialized car insurance! Or in some cases a hybrid system where you insure your vehicle but not all trauma and damage to the other party. But I don't think Americans would be a-okay with seeing a government employed doctor when they make their injury claims. Even if outcomes are better than a purely private system.
margalabargala 3y ago
If a large portion of the cost of auto insurance is to pay for potential injuries to someone that you hit, then we can conclude 1) single-payer healthcare would significantly lower the cost of auto insurance, and conversely, 2) the lack of single-payer healthcare is a significant contributor to the current state of auto insurance markets/pricing.
- timy2shoes 3y ago
  I completely agree with your assessment and logic, but the parent posted suggested that socialization of healthcare (e.g. ObamaCare) is contributing to auto rates. That I don't understand.
  - margalabargala 3y ago
    Looking again, I think their comment can be parsed in multiple ways. > Socialize healthcare as it is forcing all sorts of market distortions in unrelated markets I interpreted that as a call to socialize healthcare, not a description of market effects that "socialized healthcare" has to the extent that exists in the US.
    - tomrod 3y ago
      Your interpretation of what I posted is correct. My apologies for the lack of clarity. Comment has been edited.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  No, because injury claims also include lost income, compensation for disability, pain and suffering, etc. not just medical expenses.

maxboone 3y ago

Healthcare is socialized in Europe and car insurance is still similarly priced (750 - 1500 per year, average in NL is 950 per car for only liability) mostly due to liability costs. Required insurance covers € 7.5 million for personal injury, € 2.5 million for property damages. Edit: P.S. I am in favor of single-payer healthcare, I just don't think that is the particular cause of expensive liability car insurance - rather personal injury and property damages would seem a larger driver to me.

margalabargala 3y ago
This is interesting to me, an American unfamiliar with European systems. > Required insurance covers € 7.5 million for personal injury So in Europe (or at least some parts of Europe with otherwise socialized healthcare?), if someone is injured in a car accident, their medical bills are paid for by the insurance of the person who hit them, and not that country's single-payer system?
- maxboone 3y ago
  No, those are not billed to the person who caused the injury. The personal injury part is meant to compensate for personal injury, such as "compensation" for becoming unable to work, or live the same way as before.
- InsomniacL 3y ago
  The injured party may decide to receive treatment though a private facilitate and recoup the cost from the insurer. Regardless, if I loose my leg through the negligence of someone else, paying for the amputation isn't going to make me 'whole' again. you'd have to put a literal price on my leg.
  - tomrod 3y ago
    I believe the phrase of art for this is value of statistical life.
- orwin 3y ago
  I think in my country, the single-payer system is still linked to an individual, by his social security number, so the culprit's insurance will "pay", even though what will be paid in healthcare will mostly be aestethics or other non-reimbursable. But mainly, it will pay for damages. In my country, f you are hurt in a car accident, you can be paid depending on your average salary and invalidity percentage, called an "invalidity rent". If docotr estimate you're invalid at 80%, you'll get paid 80% of your last month salary until they check on you again, then if you're 40% invalid its 40% of your salary (before the accident, even if it was years before)... up until you're fine. I think they have to give you at least 10% as long as you have sequellas, even minor ones. That, plus fixed damages (between 5k and like 40k). It isn't perfect. It doesn't take into account missed career oportunities, inflation, the pain, or mental issues. But you can work besides the money they give you, and oftentime, you'll get the 10% for a long time, because paresthesias (whatever that thing is spelled in english) and small sequellas can stay for a long time (I know soemone who earn roughly 200€ per month, but she has trouble working in most kitchens now. She used the main check to get into academia though, and will probably end up with a master's degree for her troubles).