6 ms·

Colombia's Special Word for "You"

31 points by elijahparker 3y ago

Gualdrapo 3y ago
Not all of Colombia uses that word - it's more of a thing of an specific region. My parents were born there, but as they were brought to Bogotá in an early age, they barely use it. Though I use it more than them as I feel it conveys more sincerity than the "official" ones (tú, usted). Weirdly enough, some colombians seem to despise this word or look down on us who use it.
- macintux 3y ago
  I'm not surprised: in the U.S., regional dialects or accents are often the subject of mockery or disdain.
  - bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
    This isn't specific to the US. In my (very small) home country, people who live in the capital perceive themselves as not having an accent, whereas all the other parts of the country have accents which sound provincial. Everyone everywhere is looking for excuses to put other people down, I guess.
- krick 3y ago
  Which region is it?
  - guessmyname 3y ago
    Cundinamarca → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cundinamarca_Department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cundinamarca_Department The Spanish page has more information → https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cundinamarca https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cundinamarca
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      I wish wikipedia had indicators for when a different language's article had more content. Not surprising for a geographic topic, but it happens for others. (Something I don't readily think about being anglo).
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - duud 3y ago
      Boyacá as well I think
    - Kernel-Panic 3y ago
      Also in Santander
daquisu 3y ago
https://archive.is/UlZUR https://archive.is/UlZUR
guessmyname 3y ago
AFAIK, only old people say that, and only in the region of Cundinamarca (Bogotá). That is a very-very small number of people to write such an article, haha.
- Kernel-Panic 3y ago
  Not only in Bogotá, this expression is also used in Cundinamarca, Boyacá and Santander
narag 3y ago
So I'll add another fading oddity from my own hometown in the south of Spain. We use ustedes (short of very archaic "vuestras mercedes" BTW) instead of vosotros. That would seem not so odd, being ustedes the plural form of formal "you" usted, if not because ustedes should match "they" in verbal forms, while in fact it match plural "you". So no "ustedes saben" but "ustedes sabéis". Even usted/ustedes is fading away, TV is so powerful. But I still hear that when back there for holidays.
- jyunwai 3y ago
  As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks. For example, a university course I took tested for the proper conjugation of verbs with "vosotros/as" (with its typical usage in Spain). But I later read about some debate over why the usage of vosotros/as was tested, but not the usage of voseo (vos for the singular instead of tú), despite its usage being common in large parts of Latin America. Some textbooks for language learners treat voseo by including it in the conjugation tables just for awareness, but not testing this in the exercises. Your hometown's usage of "ustedes" is quite interesting, and it would be great to see it documented in a learner's textbook somewhere, to further reflect the diversity of the language.
  - bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
    > As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks. As a person who learned Spanish as a foreign language, let me assure you that none of this matters. What matters is learning the language well enough to communicate without causing too much strain on the other person. If you can achieve this with a foreign language everyone will be really impressed and will understand if you learned one variant instead of another.
    - jyunwai 3y ago
      I generally agree with you as a learner, though I've found advantages and disadvantages to the fairly inflexible learning expectations provided by a university environment. A useful aspect of the language that I was required to learn was a stricter focus on grammar. I got away for a while with a weaker understanding for verb conjugations during conversation, but the courses required me to learn this thoroughly. Though this wasn't necessary for general communication, this helped with preparation for a professional language assessment and for formal communications. However, a less useful aspect that didn't matter much to my communication abilities came from taking a course on pronunciation. Though learning the pronunciation rules for the first two thirds was helpful for reducing my foreign accent, the last third required a couple assessments that heavily weighted students' abilities to identify the regional accent of a speaker (e.g. identifying between accents that were Andalusian versus Rioplatense versus Chilean). While there is arguably some value with identifying a speaker's accent from an interview or film, this took a lot of time that I could have spent learning other aspects of the language, and I wish this skill would've been optional to learn. So, you've hit on one of the downsides of learning Spanish in a formal environment via inflexible expectations of learning goals, though I did find upsides too (that said, a motivated self-learner could absolutely learn grammar on their own—though a classroom environment does provide a nice motivation).
subpixel 3y ago
I sent this to my Colombian in-laws and it has started an argument between them about whether it actually means “your mercy” at all.
savq 3y ago
(Person that actually uses sumercé here.) The article is reading way too much into it, and it forgets a very important piece of information: The origin of usted is "vuestra merced". Spanish had T-V distinction, like most romance languages, but usted superceded vos as the formal 2nd person pronoun. sumercé is a word that had the same process, just starting from "su merced" instead, since in Colombia —like in all other latin american countries— vosotros is not used. That's it.
- jurimasa 3y ago
  Wrong: Spanish usted comes from the Arabic "ʔustāḏ", a honorific title meaning something like "distinguished person"
  - gfaure 3y ago
    This is wrong — an entire spectrum of early modern variants starting from _vuestra merced_ to _vuesasted_ to _vusted_ to _usted_ has been demonstrated in written and printed matter across the centuries. It helps that written Spanish has been particularly well documented from the Age of Discovery onwards.
    - moravak1984 3y ago
      > has been demonstrated in written and printed matter across the centuries. which centuries are we talking about? > It helps that written Spanish has been particularly well documented from the Age of Discovery onwards. and that was how many centuries after the Arab occupation? There are tons of Arabic-origin words in Spanish, (alcoba, aljibe, almohada, cerveza, naranja, zanahoria), so the hypothesis of "usted" sharing said origin is plausible. Maybe you have some relevant evidence to your theory?
      - gora_kh 3y ago
        Paper on this subject: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.academia.edu/4915784/Usted_Ustaad_Etymology_Re_examined&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiRlLu07duEAxWoEzQIHfqlArwQFnoECAEQAg&usg=AOvVaw0MPkpKfcchI80W4C5Y7nSg https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.academia.edu/491578... Evidence for "vuestra merced": http://elies.rediris.es/elies22/cap7.htm http://elies.rediris.es/elies22/cap7.htm Much more in-depth treatment of "vuestra merced" etymology: www.academia.edu/39806097/_Fue_vulgar_y_plebeyo_el_origen_de_usted_La_diacron%25C3%25ADa_del_pronombre_de_respeto_desde_la_interfaz_oral_escrito&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjc_-qd9tuEAxXFOjQIHWgZDMsQFnoECAYQAg&usg=AOvVaw1A_5QRn5k5EbDqDOzJ-DUy Spanish Corpus: https://www.corpusdelespanol.org/hist-gen/ https://www.corpusdelespanol.org/hist-gen/ Interesting review of dialects of Judeo-Spanish from 1894 where "su merced", "su osted", and "usted" all appear: https://www.cervantesvirtual.com/obra-visor/la-lengua-y-la-literatura--0/html/fef491d8-82b1-11df-acc7-002185ce6064_53.html/marca/osted#2029 https://www.cervantesvirtual.com/obra-visor/la-lengua-y-la-l...
woliveirajr 3y ago
In Brazil: vossa merce -> vosmecê -> você (you).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
4gotunameagain 3y ago
> We are having trouble retrieving the article content. > Please enable JavaScript in your browser settings. Should be illegal

31 points by elijahparker 3y ago

Not all of Colombia uses that word - it's more of a thing of an specific region. My parents were born there, but as they were brought to Bogotá in an early age, they barely use it. Though I use it more than them as I feel it conveys more sincerity than the "official" ones (tú, usted). Weirdly enough, some colombians seem to despise this word or look down on us who use it.

macintux 3y ago
I'm not surprised: in the U.S., regional dialects or accents are often the subject of mockery or disdain.
- bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
  This isn't specific to the US. In my (very small) home country, people who live in the capital perceive themselves as not having an accent, whereas all the other parts of the country have accents which sound provincial. Everyone everywhere is looking for excuses to put other people down, I guess.
krick 3y ago
Which region is it?
- guessmyname 3y ago
  Cundinamarca → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cundinamarca_Department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cundinamarca_Department The Spanish page has more information → https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cundinamarca https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cundinamarca
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    I wish wikipedia had indicators for when a different language's article had more content. Not surprising for a geographic topic, but it happens for others. (Something I don't readily think about being anglo).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - duud 3y ago
    Boyacá as well I think
  - Kernel-Panic 3y ago
    Also in Santander

daquisu 3y ago

https://archive.is/UlZUR https://archive.is/UlZUR

guessmyname 3y ago

AFAIK, only old people say that, and only in the region of Cundinamarca (Bogotá). That is a very-very small number of people to write such an article, haha.

Kernel-Panic 3y ago
Not only in Bogotá, this expression is also used in Cundinamarca, Boyacá and Santander

narag 3y ago

So I'll add another fading oddity from my own hometown in the south of Spain. We use ustedes (short of very archaic "vuestras mercedes" BTW) instead of vosotros. That would seem not so odd, being ustedes the plural form of formal "you" usted, if not because ustedes should match "they" in verbal forms, while in fact it match plural "you". So no "ustedes saben" but "ustedes sabéis". Even usted/ustedes is fading away, TV is so powerful. But I still hear that when back there for holidays.

jyunwai 3y ago
As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks. For example, a university course I took tested for the proper conjugation of verbs with "vosotros/as" (with its typical usage in Spain). But I later read about some debate over why the usage of vosotros/as was tested, but not the usage of voseo (vos for the singular instead of tú), despite its usage being common in large parts of Latin America. Some textbooks for language learners treat voseo by including it in the conjugation tables just for awareness, but not testing this in the exercises. Your hometown's usage of "ustedes" is quite interesting, and it would be great to see it documented in a learner's textbook somewhere, to further reflect the diversity of the language.
- bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
  > As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks. As a person who learned Spanish as a foreign language, let me assure you that none of this matters. What matters is learning the language well enough to communicate without causing too much strain on the other person. If you can achieve this with a foreign language everyone will be really impressed and will understand if you learned one variant instead of another.
  - jyunwai 3y ago
    I generally agree with you as a learner, though I've found advantages and disadvantages to the fairly inflexible learning expectations provided by a university environment. A useful aspect of the language that I was required to learn was a stricter focus on grammar. I got away for a while with a weaker understanding for verb conjugations during conversation, but the courses required me to learn this thoroughly. Though this wasn't necessary for general communication, this helped with preparation for a professional language assessment and for formal communications. However, a less useful aspect that didn't matter much to my communication abilities came from taking a course on pronunciation. Though learning the pronunciation rules for the first two thirds was helpful for reducing my foreign accent, the last third required a couple assessments that heavily weighted students' abilities to identify the regional accent of a speaker (e.g. identifying between accents that were Andalusian versus Rioplatense versus Chilean). While there is arguably some value with identifying a speaker's accent from an interview or film, this took a lot of time that I could have spent learning other aspects of the language, and I wish this skill would've been optional to learn. So, you've hit on one of the downsides of learning Spanish in a formal environment via inflexible expectations of learning goals, though I did find upsides too (that said, a motivated self-learner could absolutely learn grammar on their own—though a classroom environment does provide a nice motivation).

subpixel 3y ago

I sent this to my Colombian in-laws and it has started an argument between them about whether it actually means “your mercy” at all.

savq 3y ago

(Person that actually uses sumercé here.) The article is reading way too much into it, and it forgets a very important piece of information: The origin of usted is "vuestra merced". Spanish had T-V distinction, like most romance languages, but usted superceded vos as the formal 2nd person pronoun. sumercé is a word that had the same process, just starting from "su merced" instead, since in Colombia —like in all other latin american countries— vosotros is not used. That's it.

jurimasa 3y ago
Wrong: Spanish usted comes from the Arabic "ʔustāḏ", a honorific title meaning something like "distinguished person"
- gfaure 3y ago
  This is wrong — an entire spectrum of early modern variants starting from _vuestra merced_ to _vuesasted_ to _vusted_ to _usted_ has been demonstrated in written and printed matter across the centuries. It helps that written Spanish has been particularly well documented from the Age of Discovery onwards.
  - moravak1984 3y ago
    > has been demonstrated in written and printed matter across the centuries. which centuries are we talking about? > It helps that written Spanish has been particularly well documented from the Age of Discovery onwards. and that was how many centuries after the Arab occupation? There are tons of Arabic-origin words in Spanish, (alcoba, aljibe, almohada, cerveza, naranja, zanahoria), so the hypothesis of "usted" sharing said origin is plausible. Maybe you have some relevant evidence to your theory?
    - gora_kh 3y ago
      Paper on this subject: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.academia.edu/4915784/Usted_Ustaad_Etymology_Re_examined&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiRlLu07duEAxWoEzQIHfqlArwQFnoECAEQAg&usg=AOvVaw0MPkpKfcchI80W4C5Y7nSg https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.academia.edu/491578... Evidence for "vuestra merced": http://elies.rediris.es/elies22/cap7.htm http://elies.rediris.es/elies22/cap7.htm Much more in-depth treatment of "vuestra merced" etymology: www.academia.edu/39806097/_Fue_vulgar_y_plebeyo_el_origen_de_usted_La_diacron%25C3%25ADa_del_pronombre_de_respeto_desde_la_interfaz_oral_escrito&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjc_-qd9tuEAxXFOjQIHWgZDMsQFnoECAYQAg&usg=AOvVaw1A_5QRn5k5EbDqDOzJ-DUy Spanish Corpus: https://www.corpusdelespanol.org/hist-gen/ https://www.corpusdelespanol.org/hist-gen/ Interesting review of dialects of Judeo-Spanish from 1894 where "su merced", "su osted", and "usted" all appear: https://www.cervantesvirtual.com/obra-visor/la-lengua-y-la-literatura--0/html/fef491d8-82b1-11df-acc7-002185ce6064_53.html/marca/osted#2029 https://www.cervantesvirtual.com/obra-visor/la-lengua-y-la-l...

woliveirajr 3y ago

In Brazil: vossa merce -> vosmecê -> você (you).

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

4gotunameagain 3y ago

> We are having trouble retrieving the article content. > Please enable JavaScript in your browser settings. Should be illegal