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Isn’t ’giving up convenience in the name of freedom’ one of the core trade-offs you’re expected to make with free software? People buy into the ‘free’ bit of F

Isn’t ’giving up convenience in the name of freedom’ one of the core trade-offs you’re expected to make with free software? People buy into the ‘free’ bit of FOSS to varying degrees of course but it is disappointing that so many FOSS projects seem ok contributing so much to a proprietary product from one of the most anti-freedom corporations out there.

tasuki 3y ago
I use FOSS because it's convenient, not for some higher philosophical principle...
- rapnie 3y ago
  If use is the only thing you do it may contribute to the Tragedy of the Commons and you undermine FOSS. If you also contribute back in some ways, even for very practical purposes, you are also serving the higher philosophical principle of FOSS.
  - LeoWattenberg 3y ago
    The tragedy of the commons requires a resource that is being depleted, which definitely isn't something that merely using FOSS would do.
    - type0 3y ago
      The effort of contributors can certainly be depleted when they see that no one cares to even submit a bug report or suggest any improvements
      - kazinator 3y ago
        If you're using FOSS because it's convenient and don't have any problems, why would you suggest any improvements or report bugs?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- whyamihereagain 3y ago
  [dead]
roenxi 3y ago
No. Freedom includes the freedom to do what is convenient. The tolerance of inconvenience is a practical argument. If you have non-free dependencies, the most likely scenario is that sooner or later the dependency will kill support for the project and you have no legal recourse. Eg, if a project uses Discord, at some point it will have to move away to some other technology/protocol. If it uses git, the project won't ever have to move away from git. Those predictions can be made purely from analysing the license. Since a move is inevitable, it really should make more sense to use FOSS protocols and clients from the get go. People don't though, and I don't pretend to understand the reasons. But what I can confidently say that Discord is going to become inhospitable for the project eventually.
- LightFog 3y ago
  This doesn’t seem to cover the ‘social’ or community side of software freedom though. Sure you have the freedom to make life tough for your future self for short term gain - but by embracing non-free software you are ultimately limiting the freedom of others via network effects and lock-ins. Exactly what has happened with GitHub.
  - rapnie 3y ago
    Exactly, ones convenient choice undermines and erodes collective freedoms. In FOSS you 'vote' with your choices. In an analogy with politics this lack of consideration of freedoms and values, and applying of critical thinking may lead to freedom eventually being eradicated for good (or a very long time). In politics unfortunately we see people time and again voting democratically for their own oppression and lack of choice.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  Yes Discord eventually won't be a good choice. Eventually. Then people will just move People are talking about Discord like Freenode didn't crap on everyone recently Meanwhile, sure, feel free to use an OSS solution then realize nobody cares
  - 3y ago
andai 3y ago
Stallman said (paraphrasing) "If free software were inferior, using it would still be the right thing to do. Fortunately, it is also superior in terms of features and experience." That being said, Stallman (still?) uses mostly terminal based software, so that take is a bit biased.
- LightFog 3y ago
  I think that might be wishful thinking on his part - I remember hearing about him consuming some types of web content via a friend downloading html and emailing it to him! He has spoken plenty about confronting the convenience-freedom trade off that anyone consuming software will be confronted with though.
- TulliusCicero 3y ago
  > "If free software were inferior, using it would still be the right thing to do. Fortunately, it is also superior in terms of features and experience." It blows me away just how out of touch one otherwise-intelligent man can be. FOSS often has severe usability issues compared to popular proprietary counterparts -- just look at any article here talking about trying to use Matrix or get friends/relatives to use it, it's basically always a big dumpster fire. Yet somehow you still have people recommending it.
  - the_gipsy 3y ago
    Yes, but it's not constantly trying to trick you into paying, or locking you in to some format/platform that will lead to you paying. Those are also big usability issues.
    - TulliusCicero 3y ago
      No, not really. I mean, those are issues, but more of monetization than usability. The usability decrease from those things is fairly small.
      - the_gipsy 3y ago
pillusmany 3y ago
According to this logic FOSS projects should not support proprietary OSes like Windows or macOS.
- rapnie 3y ago
  That's different. These OS'es are more bottom of the stack. Below that they run on proprietary firmware, even Linux.
- LightFog 3y ago
  It seems there are plenty that don’t - although that may also be for practical reasons. But yes, I do think that free software ideals discourage supporting those platforms - however some may support them to give their users at least some freedom, eg when they are forced to use the platforms due to some work policy.

tasuki 3y ago

I use FOSS because it's convenient, not for some higher philosophical principle...

rapnie 3y ago
If use is the only thing you do it may contribute to the Tragedy of the Commons and you undermine FOSS. If you also contribute back in some ways, even for very practical purposes, you are also serving the higher philosophical principle of FOSS.
- LeoWattenberg 3y ago
  The tragedy of the commons requires a resource that is being depleted, which definitely isn't something that merely using FOSS would do.
  - type0 3y ago
    The effort of contributors can certainly be depleted when they see that no one cares to even submit a bug report or suggest any improvements
    - kazinator 3y ago
      If you're using FOSS because it's convenient and don't have any problems, why would you suggest any improvements or report bugs?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
whyamihereagain 3y ago
[dead]

roenxi 3y ago

No. Freedom includes the freedom to do what is convenient. The tolerance of inconvenience is a practical argument. If you have non-free dependencies, the most likely scenario is that sooner or later the dependency will kill support for the project and you have no legal recourse. Eg, if a project uses Discord, at some point it will have to move away to some other technology/protocol. If it uses git, the project won't ever have to move away from git. Those predictions can be made purely from analysing the license. Since a move is inevitable, it really should make more sense to use FOSS protocols and clients from the get go. People don't though, and I don't pretend to understand the reasons. But what I can confidently say that Discord is going to become inhospitable for the project eventually.

LightFog 3y ago
This doesn’t seem to cover the ‘social’ or community side of software freedom though. Sure you have the freedom to make life tough for your future self for short term gain - but by embracing non-free software you are ultimately limiting the freedom of others via network effects and lock-ins. Exactly what has happened with GitHub.
- rapnie 3y ago
  Exactly, ones convenient choice undermines and erodes collective freedoms. In FOSS you 'vote' with your choices. In an analogy with politics this lack of consideration of freedoms and values, and applying of critical thinking may lead to freedom eventually being eradicated for good (or a very long time). In politics unfortunately we see people time and again voting democratically for their own oppression and lack of choice.
raverbashing 3y ago
Yes Discord eventually won't be a good choice. Eventually. Then people will just move People are talking about Discord like Freenode didn't crap on everyone recently Meanwhile, sure, feel free to use an OSS solution then realize nobody cares
- 3y ago

andai 3y ago

Stallman said (paraphrasing) "If free software were inferior, using it would still be the right thing to do. Fortunately, it is also superior in terms of features and experience." That being said, Stallman (still?) uses mostly terminal based software, so that take is a bit biased.

LightFog 3y ago
I think that might be wishful thinking on his part - I remember hearing about him consuming some types of web content via a friend downloading html and emailing it to him! He has spoken plenty about confronting the convenience-freedom trade off that anyone consuming software will be confronted with though.
TulliusCicero 3y ago
> "If free software were inferior, using it would still be the right thing to do. Fortunately, it is also superior in terms of features and experience." It blows me away just how out of touch one otherwise-intelligent man can be. FOSS often has severe usability issues compared to popular proprietary counterparts -- just look at any article here talking about trying to use Matrix or get friends/relatives to use it, it's basically always a big dumpster fire. Yet somehow you still have people recommending it.
- the_gipsy 3y ago
  Yes, but it's not constantly trying to trick you into paying, or locking you in to some format/platform that will lead to you paying. Those are also big usability issues.
  - TulliusCicero 3y ago
    No, not really. I mean, those are issues, but more of monetization than usability. The usability decrease from those things is fairly small.
    - the_gipsy 3y ago

pillusmany 3y ago

According to this logic FOSS projects should not support proprietary OSes like Windows or macOS.

rapnie 3y ago
That's different. These OS'es are more bottom of the stack. Below that they run on proprietary firmware, even Linux.
LightFog 3y ago
It seems there are plenty that don’t - although that may also be for practical reasons. But yes, I do think that free software ideals discourage supporting those platforms - however some may support them to give their users at least some freedom, eg when they are forced to use the platforms due to some work policy.