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Anecdote time. I worked on a Deutsche Telekom cloud project, which was somewhat internally competing with the Huawei-built Open Telekom Cloud. At the same time

by kmarc 3y ago

Anecdote time. I worked on a Deutsche Telekom cloud project, which was somewhat internally competing with the Huawei-built Open Telekom Cloud. At the same time, a business partner and I also consulted other telco companies. What I have seen, down to the data center from Huawei was insane. From a technical perspective (hardware and software) was great, but the pace they ate up people was something I am not familiar with in European culture. This one day, checking the servers in the DC, a manager-like dude was shouting at his subordinate engineer to fix things. I found it weird (and a bit unprofessional). Next day, a new engineer joined the team, the previous one was not there anymore. When I asked how did they replace him so quickly, they told me that they literally flew someone in from China overnight. They delivered. Their things worked. Tech was great. I wouldn't want to work in such environment.

dilyevsky 3y ago
I also worked on the telco side and we did dd for huawei equipment in 2010 (it was early days of IMS). They actually flew us to their hq in shenzhen and i spent weeks there. I haven’t seen anything like what you’re describing but one thing I remember is how paranoid about security (including physical security) they were always talking shit about “those thieves from zte”. I found this pretty hilarious and still do
pototo666 3y ago
In China, Huawei is known for offering competitive salaries but also demands a lot from its employees. Many people tolerate the toxic work environment in exchange for financial benefits, particularly as they gradually improve their family's lifestyle with their rising income. As a successful company, Huawei has also popularized the so-called "Wolf-like Spirit" among other Chinese firms. The "Wolf-like Spirit" implies an expectation to work extremely hard and do whatever is necessary to achieve the company's goals. One anecdote involves some Japanese customers who visited ZTE, a competitor of Huawei. To break the deals, Huawei allegedly sent individuals who pretended to be ZTE employees and entertained the customers with drinking and whoring for a week. No one should trust a company like Huawei. Or any companies with deep CCP connection from China.
- chrischen 3y ago
  Any company with deep financial dependency on the Chinese market (basically all Chinese companies) will have connections with the Chinese Communist party (aka the ruling government), including all Chinese citizens in the country... They will have "deep connection" with the government because all these people and entities are subject to the local laws and established interests and they don't really have an alternative. It's not like the US or the West is so immigration happy welcoming them in with open arms. As such if the default stance is not to trust or do business with Chinese-related parties this will exclude the entire country eventually, since they aren't given any realistic alternatives to being completely blacklisted they'll likely retaliate (understandably). What should they do? Just "cooperate"? No amount of cooperation or action from the Chinese side will get them to be trusted or viewed differently, because the fundamental issue isn't that Huawei is selling backdoored or hacked devices (which they aren't, or otherwise everything would have been ripped out instantly)... it's that they fundamentally do not trust the company, or anything from China.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    It is funny, because even foreign experts working in China are expected to join the trade union, although they can’t vote in its elections (not a huge loss). Huawei’s connection to the PLA stands out among Chinese companies, but you are correct that every company in China will have strong ties to the CPC and could have strong involvement by the PLA. They mostly don’t, however, the government isn’t that well organized outside if just governing, and China’s corporate scene is very chaotic. A lot of it is just a hyper competitive market that turns them a certain way.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Well, Nortel had a former US Navy Admiral as CEO at some point. Deep links between government and large companies exist in every country whether acknowledged or not. In Huawei's case, frankly the issue was that it was the first time a company not in the West's control became a major player in a strategic industry. Alleged CCP/PLA links are just part of the narrative built against them but the issue was more general.
  - 3y ago
mytailorisrich 3y ago
All massively successful companies, especially starting from scratch are very demanding. That's one of the reasons European companies have faltered while Chinese ones (or American) are expanding. Can do attitude and hard work, there's no magic recipe. Work/life balance, Friday afternoons off, leave office no later than 6pm, 4 day week, etc are all very nice but then if your competition work their asses off 6-7 days a week you're going to be eaten alive.
- cangeroo 3y ago
  It's a difficult problem: Work hard: The organization can become rife with politics and self-interested high-risk high-reward behaviors. People may stop collaborating, i.e. sharing knowledge, which can impede decision making, increase risk, and undermine innovation. Employees may only care about financial compensation, so it's easy for other companies to poach them, and indirectly steal insider information. Employees may burn-out causing resignations and interruptions to projects. That's why the alternative arose. Work/life balance: The organization is focused on productivity, not hardship. On sharing the work burden, on being able to trust your colleagues to come through. Meetings are short, direct, and no time is spent on fighting. Like an effective sports team, that passes the ball when appropriate. My perspective is that European companies are failing for other reasons. In particular, the US, both as a state, and their private actors, are actively undermining the European economies and industries, and corruption has become rampant, partly due to the enormous bribes that are possible by well-funded actors. All legal, of course, in the same way that Super PACs are unquestionably legal. Anyway, more to the point: I want to focus on the organizational culture aspect. Sometimes employees do get "lazy", or complacent. Isn't that a leadership problem? I'd love to hear your various ideas on how these problems can be solved.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    The issues and benefits you list are not specific to either "side". It feels a bit like you picked and chose through rose-tinted glasses when, really, everything you listed may happen in either case and are more symptoms of the quality of leadership. The US act in their own interests as they should and, I think, are ruthlessly pragmatic. Europe undermines itself because they are constantly shooting themselves in the foot, starting from their own governments.
MrDresden 3y ago
>This one day, checking the servers in the DC, a manager-like dude was shouting at his subordinate engineer to fix things. I found it weird (and a bit unprofessional). I would call that highly unprofessional and a red flag.
petre 3y ago
Yes, that's quite typical of Chinese (and to a lesser extent Korean) work culture. Shouting orders, slogans, zealotry, fierce competition, 996.
- falserum 3y ago
  What is 996 (short googling gave only a model of a sports car)
  - dewey 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
  - jpgvm 3y ago
    9am to 9pm, 6 days a week.
  - frogcoder 3y ago
    Working from 9 to 9 six days a week
  - fragmede 3y ago
    ChatGPT got 996 as the work schedule instead of the car https://chat.openai.com/share/2778df30-19c5-4cf6-8f0b-07c30a85a875 https://chat.openai.com/share/2778df30-19c5-4cf6-8f0b-07c30a...
flohofwoe 3y ago
Lol, same experience working with a big-ish Chinese game developer. The project manager I worked with for over a year had simply disappeared when I returned from a 2 week vacation, and nobody wanted to talk about what the reason was, only "oh, he doesn't work here anymore". Same but much more frequently for the regular developers, people you worked with just disappeared from one day to another with everybody pretending that nothing happened (of course I was an outsider in the company and nobody would have told me anything anyway, but usually you'd get an announcement or a good-bye-mail on the internal mailing list or Slack channel, but nothing ever, people just disappeared, and somebody else showed up to take their place after a a few days). Total clown show.
- ammo1662 3y ago
  Chinese will have farewell parties with coworkers who have good relationship with. They just don't like sending announcement or good-bye-mail to the entire company. If you a just "someone" to a Chinese, you will not be notified.
- kmarc 3y ago
  With the risk of sounding to defend this culture, sprinkled with a tiny bit of whataboutism: I also worked in a very PC cultured, all colors and genders and opinions and whatever welcome, very western, woke style company and a new joiner, who was allegedly unhappy with his job, disappeared without a trace from one day to the next. After many weeks me questioning, what happened, I got at least a "he is alive and reasonably well" answer. Not saying that this is common, but when it's about saving face, companies, regardless of their previously projected image, can turn to such autocratic style when it comes to communication. Basically what they radiate: "just stop asking and move on", your colleague is not of concern anymore.
powerapple 3y ago
The environment you are describing is 'developing world', especially when it wants to play the catch up game. It can only get worse because they soon find out catching-up is a lot more difficult than they imagined. As a Chinese I don't want to work in Chinese companies, but I do understand why they do it.
- guappa 3y ago
  Eh in sweden I got asked to do unpaid overtime and the CTO refused to write me a recommendation letter since I had refused to do the (completely illegal) unpaid overtime. They were hiring mostly young immigrants because they are more pliable to this sort of things.
  - powerapple 3y ago
    Was it even legal to ask for unpaid overtime in Sweden? Unfortunately that's the reality. Young immigrants feel insecure in the country and would grab and hold on anything can keep them afloat above the water level. People make different decisions based on their circumstances. It is not going to change a lot.
    - guappa 3y ago
      Most people were from EU, you don't get kicked out if you lose your job. So he was pivoting to hiring more non EU people.

by kmarc 3y ago

dilyevsky 3y ago

I also worked on the telco side and we did dd for huawei equipment in 2010 (it was early days of IMS). They actually flew us to their hq in shenzhen and i spent weeks there. I haven’t seen anything like what you’re describing but one thing I remember is how paranoid about security (including physical security) they were always talking shit about “those thieves from zte”. I found this pretty hilarious and still do

pototo666 3y ago

In China, Huawei is known for offering competitive salaries but also demands a lot from its employees. Many people tolerate the toxic work environment in exchange for financial benefits, particularly as they gradually improve their family's lifestyle with their rising income. As a successful company, Huawei has also popularized the so-called "Wolf-like Spirit" among other Chinese firms. The "Wolf-like Spirit" implies an expectation to work extremely hard and do whatever is necessary to achieve the company's goals. One anecdote involves some Japanese customers who visited ZTE, a competitor of Huawei. To break the deals, Huawei allegedly sent individuals who pretended to be ZTE employees and entertained the customers with drinking and whoring for a week. No one should trust a company like Huawei. Or any companies with deep CCP connection from China.

chrischen 3y ago
Any company with deep financial dependency on the Chinese market (basically all Chinese companies) will have connections with the Chinese Communist party (aka the ruling government), including all Chinese citizens in the country... They will have "deep connection" with the government because all these people and entities are subject to the local laws and established interests and they don't really have an alternative. It's not like the US or the West is so immigration happy welcoming them in with open arms. As such if the default stance is not to trust or do business with Chinese-related parties this will exclude the entire country eventually, since they aren't given any realistic alternatives to being completely blacklisted they'll likely retaliate (understandably). What should they do? Just "cooperate"? No amount of cooperation or action from the Chinese side will get them to be trusted or viewed differently, because the fundamental issue isn't that Huawei is selling backdoored or hacked devices (which they aren't, or otherwise everything would have been ripped out instantly)... it's that they fundamentally do not trust the company, or anything from China.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  It is funny, because even foreign experts working in China are expected to join the trade union, although they can’t vote in its elections (not a huge loss). Huawei’s connection to the PLA stands out among Chinese companies, but you are correct that every company in China will have strong ties to the CPC and could have strong involvement by the PLA. They mostly don’t, however, the government isn’t that well organized outside if just governing, and China’s corporate scene is very chaotic. A lot of it is just a hyper competitive market that turns them a certain way.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Well, Nortel had a former US Navy Admiral as CEO at some point. Deep links between government and large companies exist in every country whether acknowledged or not. In Huawei's case, frankly the issue was that it was the first time a company not in the West's control became a major player in a strategic industry. Alleged CCP/PLA links are just part of the narrative built against them but the issue was more general.
- 3y ago

mytailorisrich 3y ago

All massively successful companies, especially starting from scratch are very demanding. That's one of the reasons European companies have faltered while Chinese ones (or American) are expanding. Can do attitude and hard work, there's no magic recipe. Work/life balance, Friday afternoons off, leave office no later than 6pm, 4 day week, etc are all very nice but then if your competition work their asses off 6-7 days a week you're going to be eaten alive.

cangeroo 3y ago
It's a difficult problem: Work hard: The organization can become rife with politics and self-interested high-risk high-reward behaviors. People may stop collaborating, i.e. sharing knowledge, which can impede decision making, increase risk, and undermine innovation. Employees may only care about financial compensation, so it's easy for other companies to poach them, and indirectly steal insider information. Employees may burn-out causing resignations and interruptions to projects. That's why the alternative arose. Work/life balance: The organization is focused on productivity, not hardship. On sharing the work burden, on being able to trust your colleagues to come through. Meetings are short, direct, and no time is spent on fighting. Like an effective sports team, that passes the ball when appropriate. My perspective is that European companies are failing for other reasons. In particular, the US, both as a state, and their private actors, are actively undermining the European economies and industries, and corruption has become rampant, partly due to the enormous bribes that are possible by well-funded actors. All legal, of course, in the same way that Super PACs are unquestionably legal. Anyway, more to the point: I want to focus on the organizational culture aspect. Sometimes employees do get "lazy", or complacent. Isn't that a leadership problem? I'd love to hear your various ideas on how these problems can be solved.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  The issues and benefits you list are not specific to either "side". It feels a bit like you picked and chose through rose-tinted glasses when, really, everything you listed may happen in either case and are more symptoms of the quality of leadership. The US act in their own interests as they should and, I think, are ruthlessly pragmatic. Europe undermines itself because they are constantly shooting themselves in the foot, starting from their own governments.

MrDresden 3y ago

>This one day, checking the servers in the DC, a manager-like dude was shouting at his subordinate engineer to fix things. I found it weird (and a bit unprofessional). I would call that highly unprofessional and a red flag.

petre 3y ago

Yes, that's quite typical of Chinese (and to a lesser extent Korean) work culture. Shouting orders, slogans, zealotry, fierce competition, 996.

falserum 3y ago
What is 996 (short googling gave only a model of a sports car)
- dewey 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
- jpgvm 3y ago
  9am to 9pm, 6 days a week.
- frogcoder 3y ago
  Working from 9 to 9 six days a week
- fragmede 3y ago
  ChatGPT got 996 as the work schedule instead of the car https://chat.openai.com/share/2778df30-19c5-4cf6-8f0b-07c30a85a875 https://chat.openai.com/share/2778df30-19c5-4cf6-8f0b-07c30a...

flohofwoe 3y ago

Lol, same experience working with a big-ish Chinese game developer. The project manager I worked with for over a year had simply disappeared when I returned from a 2 week vacation, and nobody wanted to talk about what the reason was, only "oh, he doesn't work here anymore". Same but much more frequently for the regular developers, people you worked with just disappeared from one day to another with everybody pretending that nothing happened (of course I was an outsider in the company and nobody would have told me anything anyway, but usually you'd get an announcement or a good-bye-mail on the internal mailing list or Slack channel, but nothing ever, people just disappeared, and somebody else showed up to take their place after a a few days). Total clown show.

ammo1662 3y ago
Chinese will have farewell parties with coworkers who have good relationship with. They just don't like sending announcement or good-bye-mail to the entire company. If you a just "someone" to a Chinese, you will not be notified.
kmarc 3y ago
With the risk of sounding to defend this culture, sprinkled with a tiny bit of whataboutism: I also worked in a very PC cultured, all colors and genders and opinions and whatever welcome, very western, woke style company and a new joiner, who was allegedly unhappy with his job, disappeared without a trace from one day to the next. After many weeks me questioning, what happened, I got at least a "he is alive and reasonably well" answer. Not saying that this is common, but when it's about saving face, companies, regardless of their previously projected image, can turn to such autocratic style when it comes to communication. Basically what they radiate: "just stop asking and move on", your colleague is not of concern anymore.

powerapple 3y ago

The environment you are describing is 'developing world', especially when it wants to play the catch up game. It can only get worse because they soon find out catching-up is a lot more difficult than they imagined. As a Chinese I don't want to work in Chinese companies, but I do understand why they do it.

guappa 3y ago
Eh in sweden I got asked to do unpaid overtime and the CTO refused to write me a recommendation letter since I had refused to do the (completely illegal) unpaid overtime. They were hiring mostly young immigrants because they are more pliable to this sort of things.
- powerapple 3y ago
  Was it even legal to ask for unpaid overtime in Sweden? Unfortunately that's the reality. Young immigrants feel insecure in the country and would grab and hold on anything can keep them afloat above the water level. People make different decisions based on their circumstances. It is not going to change a lot.
  - guappa 3y ago
    Most people were from EU, you don't get kicked out if you lose your job. So he was pivoting to hiring more non EU people.