4 ms·

They need a union, or to go on strike if they have one

pfannkuchen 3y ago
Has anyone looked at designing a headless distributed union? The coordination function of unions is theoretically very useful and positive, but the governance structure tends to resemble that of a large corporation.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  No, because you need to read the classic essay The Tyranny of Structurelessness.
  - pfannkuchen 3y ago
    Why should I read that? The sort of system I described does have a structure. Would you say that bitcoin is also structureless?
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      Go and read it, or ask ChatGPT to summarise it. > Would you say that bitcoin is also structureless? I don't know enough about Bitcoin's power structures to know tbh. I've heard there are "core developers" who make decisions but I don't know if someone has dictatorial control or if they're elected etc.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
I'm in an EU country where this is a thing (Austria), and IT workers do have their own national labor union here (like most professions), but strikes that impact the business are not allowed by law, because that would actually give workers leverage and we can't have that in capitalism, we just have to give the peasants the impression that their opinion maters. So all the IT workers could do was parade around the capital holding up signs asking for a wage raise matching inflation, but not turn off infrastructure or leave it unattended to rot/crash and loose their employers' money, as that would be illegal, even though that would be immensely effective at getting their demands met. So obviously, the protest and the union gave the IT workers fuck all in the end, resulting in a pitiful average wage increase below inflation levels, therefore an actual wage loss YoY. But hey, at least we can say we have unions on paper to look out for us, while IT workers here with Master's degrees earn less than janitors in Palo Alto, Cupertino or Mountain View. Toothless unions are worth exactly jack shit. If the law prohibits them from causing monetary losses to companies (the only language they understand), then they might as well not exist. From what I read here, I think only France and Sweden know how to do unions and strikes right in order to get what they want.
- rvnx 3y ago
  And then the union folks do everything to keep the power to themselves, and if you are not a member paying the union, they are not going to "protect" you.
  - piva00 3y ago
    If you're not part of an organisation why would you expect them to protect you? You cannot have your cake and eat it too...
- BrandoElFollito 3y ago
  Interesting, I thought Austria followed quite closely the law in Germany (at least for work councils) and I did not hear of such a restriction there. I am French and we have unions but anyone is free to go on strike on their own. Strikes are usually orchestrated by unions for the bang effect, but that's all. You can also strike against your business, I did not know that it possible not to. There are few exceptions for the strike freedom such as the police, army and maybe something more. Now, IT would not really think about going on strike, they wild rather switch companies (in the current job market).
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >I thought Austria followed quite closely the law in Germany (at least for work councils) Workers' councils work similar to Germany (I think) but those are established on a per company basis and also have powers limited by law. I was talking about labor unions which negociate the yearly wage increases for the whole profession (Kollektivvertrag) which is also regulated by law in what they can and can't do in a strike. Basically you're allowed to publicly strike, as in make your demands heard, but you aren't allowed to sabotage or negatively impact the business in order to have your demands met. Isn't that convenient? /s >Now, IT would not really think about going on strike, they wild rather switch companies (in the current job market). That only works when the merket is red hot, but not now, not here. The market is dead for everything excepting skilled seniors. You have to strike for the good of those who aren't senior enough to have leverage over their employer, like juniors and mids. Otherwise it's no surprise an IT worker here makes less money than a unionized tram driver.
theultdev 3y ago
Or simply go to a company that does embrace remote. I don't see why we need a union to force companies to be remote. Just don't work for those companies. Amazon tried this and I believe reversed the decision because so many devs quit. Now their warehouse workers do need a union from the sounds of things.
- frfl 3y ago
  > Or simply go to a company that does embrace remote. One does not simply go to another company right now. Hiring is slow, it's not 2021, and there's already thousands of others also looking for work. It's easy to say, harder to do. Especially if you have a family, in addition to a full time job at a game company (not exactly a low stress environment itself) > Amazon tried this and I believe reversed the decision because so many devs quit. Every single job I see on Amazon's page for Software is in-person non-remote. Maybe they made exceptions for some, but anyone joining right now won't be remote. Same thing for any other FANG/MAANA/etc, Correct me if I'm mistaken.
  - theultdev 3y ago
    Well then I guess they'll have to go to the office while they look for a new employer, the horror. But yeah I suppose some could group together to force the policy decisions of where everyone works... Those damn employers supporting people's families.
    - text0404 3y ago
      those poor employers just trying to support everyone's families and those ungrateful developers working 7 days a week taking advantage of them, "building" the "products" that make the company "profitable" :( and now these maladjusted workers are thinking of organizing together??? for better working conditions??????? ridiculous. just go work at mcdonalds or something amirite
      - theultdev 3y ago
        Uhm where did you see they were making them work 7 days a week? This article is about them complaining about having to go into the office for 5 days. Working remotely is not a right. You have many people here who advocated against it vehemently for years. I prefer remote work and I'd only work for a full remote company, but in no way do I feel like it's my right to force a company to allow me be remote.

Has anyone looked at designing a headless distributed union? The coordination function of unions is theoretically very useful and positive, but the governance structure tends to resemble that of a large corporation.

IshKebab 3y ago
No, because you need to read the classic essay The Tyranny of Structurelessness.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  Why should I read that? The sort of system I described does have a structure. Would you say that bitcoin is also structureless?
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    Go and read it, or ask ChatGPT to summarise it. > Would you say that bitcoin is also structureless? I don't know enough about Bitcoin's power structures to know tbh. I've heard there are "core developers" who make decisions but I don't know if someone has dictatorial control or if they're elected etc.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

I'm in an EU country where this is a thing (Austria), and IT workers do have their own national labor union here (like most professions), but strikes that impact the business are not allowed by law, because that would actually give workers leverage and we can't have that in capitalism, we just have to give the peasants the impression that their opinion maters. So all the IT workers could do was parade around the capital holding up signs asking for a wage raise matching inflation, but not turn off infrastructure or leave it unattended to rot/crash and loose their employers' money, as that would be illegal, even though that would be immensely effective at getting their demands met. So obviously, the protest and the union gave the IT workers fuck all in the end, resulting in a pitiful average wage increase below inflation levels, therefore an actual wage loss YoY. But hey, at least we can say we have unions on paper to look out for us, while IT workers here with Master's degrees earn less than janitors in Palo Alto, Cupertino or Mountain View. Toothless unions are worth exactly jack shit. If the law prohibits them from causing monetary losses to companies (the only language they understand), then they might as well not exist. From what I read here, I think only France and Sweden know how to do unions and strikes right in order to get what they want.

rvnx 3y ago
And then the union folks do everything to keep the power to themselves, and if you are not a member paying the union, they are not going to "protect" you.
- piva00 3y ago
  If you're not part of an organisation why would you expect them to protect you? You cannot have your cake and eat it too...
BrandoElFollito 3y ago
Interesting, I thought Austria followed quite closely the law in Germany (at least for work councils) and I did not hear of such a restriction there. I am French and we have unions but anyone is free to go on strike on their own. Strikes are usually orchestrated by unions for the bang effect, but that's all. You can also strike against your business, I did not know that it possible not to. There are few exceptions for the strike freedom such as the police, army and maybe something more. Now, IT would not really think about going on strike, they wild rather switch companies (in the current job market).
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >I thought Austria followed quite closely the law in Germany (at least for work councils) Workers' councils work similar to Germany (I think) but those are established on a per company basis and also have powers limited by law. I was talking about labor unions which negociate the yearly wage increases for the whole profession (Kollektivvertrag) which is also regulated by law in what they can and can't do in a strike. Basically you're allowed to publicly strike, as in make your demands heard, but you aren't allowed to sabotage or negatively impact the business in order to have your demands met. Isn't that convenient? /s >Now, IT would not really think about going on strike, they wild rather switch companies (in the current job market). That only works when the merket is red hot, but not now, not here. The market is dead for everything excepting skilled seniors. You have to strike for the good of those who aren't senior enough to have leverage over their employer, like juniors and mids. Otherwise it's no surprise an IT worker here makes less money than a unionized tram driver.

theultdev 3y ago

Or simply go to a company that does embrace remote. I don't see why we need a union to force companies to be remote. Just don't work for those companies. Amazon tried this and I believe reversed the decision because so many devs quit. Now their warehouse workers do need a union from the sounds of things.

frfl 3y ago
> Or simply go to a company that does embrace remote. One does not simply go to another company right now. Hiring is slow, it's not 2021, and there's already thousands of others also looking for work. It's easy to say, harder to do. Especially if you have a family, in addition to a full time job at a game company (not exactly a low stress environment itself) > Amazon tried this and I believe reversed the decision because so many devs quit. Every single job I see on Amazon's page for Software is in-person non-remote. Maybe they made exceptions for some, but anyone joining right now won't be remote. Same thing for any other FANG/MAANA/etc, Correct me if I'm mistaken.
- theultdev 3y ago
  Well then I guess they'll have to go to the office while they look for a new employer, the horror. But yeah I suppose some could group together to force the policy decisions of where everyone works... Those damn employers supporting people's families.
  - text0404 3y ago
    those poor employers just trying to support everyone's families and those ungrateful developers working 7 days a week taking advantage of them, "building" the "products" that make the company "profitable" :( and now these maladjusted workers are thinking of organizing together??? for better working conditions??????? ridiculous. just go work at mcdonalds or something amirite
    - theultdev 3y ago
      Uhm where did you see they were making them work 7 days a week? This article is about them complaining about having to go into the office for 5 days. Working remotely is not a right. You have many people here who advocated against it vehemently for years. I prefer remote work and I'd only work for a full remote company, but in no way do I feel like it's my right to force a company to allow me be remote.