6 ms·

Are We Wayland Yet?

43 points by skibz 3y ago

declaredapple 3y ago
How is nvidia on wayland these days? Is running an nvidia gpu + gnome/kde + steam viable these days? Do most games work well?
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  gnome & kde have links in the Nvidia section at the bottom with good articles showing current status.
- bogwog 3y ago
  I've been daily driving KDE/Wayland/Nvidia for about a year and it's perfectly usable. There are odd bugs every now and then, but nothing that's a show stopper.
  - jtriangle 3y ago
    KDE/Wayland/Nvidia->random bugs KDE/X11/Nvidia->No random bugs It is a show stopper when the alternative is more reliable. If I'm playing around, ie, not doing actual work, sure, wayland is cool, and fine. I get the draw. When I'm trying to get something done, I'd much rather use X11 for now.
    - bogwog 3y ago
      I said it was perfectly usable and I meant that. It's my full-time primary workstation, which I use for "actual work" every day. I could waste time elaborating on why that is, listing the odd bugs I mentioned, etc. But I suspect you're part of that crowd that froths at the mouth whenever the name "Wayland" is brought up no matter what. No other explanation explains why you'd leap from "odd bugs" to the inability to "get something done". Instead, I'll just leave my system build so anyone passing by can give it a go if they want to actually try it out: * Fedora Kinoite 39 * Nvidia rtx 4090 (driver 545.29.06) * AMD Ryzen 9 7900
      - jtriangle 3y ago
        I'm not part of any group, much less one that 'froths' unless you're talking about frothing milk, in which case, yes, I am very much a part of the milk frother's group, that shit's delicious. That toungue in cheek answer is all you deserve, being that HN users like you are a big problem, ie, ones that assume liberally about other users. We'll see if you're in the worst of the worst camp if you fail to recant your assumption. You're using Fedora, which, they've patched up their flavor of KDE pretty well to work with Wayland/Nividia. I don't use Fedora, and I don't really like Fedora so switching isn't something I'm personally interested in, and the easy KDE installs I have access to through my distros of choice don't support Wayland/Nvidia well, but work fine with x11. And "x11 is fine" is a part of the discussion that, I don't see come up nearly enough in the "use wayland/don't use wayland" discussions online. What exactly do you get out of using wayland? The answer is "nothing worth more than a bugfree experience". Objectively. And don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for wayland, I get the benefits full well, and I don't think I'm rooting in vain, it'll get there. I also accept that "getting there" is going to involve pushing it into distros before it's really ready in order to generate bug reports. Debian handles this currently by defaulting to wayland where it can, and allowing for an easy way back to x11 if needed. I think that's reasonable enough. I also think debian should have had it defaulted the other way around for another year or two but, I'm far from 'frothing' about it. All that to say, wayland's not ready for prod. X11 is fine, and will continue to be fine until wayland is ready for prod, and like many things in the linux space, it is indeed better to wait until then unless you have an actual need that can't be satisfied by x11.
  - saurik 3y ago
    Why use something "perfectly usable" with "odd bugs" when you can use something that "actually works"?
    - k8svet 3y ago
      You and everyone else in this thread know why. The list of benefits from Wayland is touted repeatedly, in every single one of these threads, for years. We get it, you don't care about mixed DPI, fractional scaling, HDR, non-tearing performance, VRR, a viable driver model for the 2020s, etc. You know, features that consumers expect. HN should ban these threads. They're g-d absolutely worse than the worst politics threads.
      - creshal 3y ago
        Consumers mostly expect their computers to actually work, these days. They neither know or care about what "a viable driver model for the 2020s" is, they want screensharing to not break every other month.
        k8svet 3y ago
        You all really just drive home your ignorance when you say stuff like this. Screenshotting has never regressed to my knowledge, once it began working, in any wayland DE. I use Wayland. Every damn day. I make a lot of money doing software engineering. All day. I screen share all day.
        creshal 3y ago
        Screenshotting != Screensharing The last two jobs I worked in was in linux-heavy devops departments. The Wayland users are having far more trouble than any of the X11/Mac/Windows users, and probably more than all of them combined. Maybe it is possible that all of them are just "holding it wrong", but if Wayland is that easy to break, it's still a no sell for me.
        3y ago
- fishpen0 3y ago
  For me its a jittery nightmare. I can't even play a video in vlc and still have firefox scroll smoothly on another monitor. I can turn my desktop experience into a slide show if I set the refresh rate on all three monitors to 144hz. Its silly I'm looking at choosing between having a good linux desktop experience _or_ being able to use CUDA for ML/AI stuff OR having to build a second computer so I can have a gaming computer on AMD _and_ a work node on NVIDIA
- Affric 3y ago
  Below the performance you would like by a long way. Always improving.
Spivak 3y ago
Really happy to see that WayPipe has moved from a cute demo to a real tool. It's an absolutely insane implementation and I love it. If X.org hadn't made it a first-class feature there's no way we would have invented it today.
amelius 3y ago
Is anybody using it? There's this switch called WaylandEnable in my gdm3 config file, but I have to keep it false to stay out of trouble.
- kreck 3y ago
  Can confirm that you may run into trouble e.g. when requiring screenshot capabilities (via scrot in our case) hence we had to set the WaylandEnable to false as well.
- Steltek 3y ago
  Yes? All the time? "Stay out of trouble" is definitely not universal among Linux users. Not too long ago, the idea would have been kind of a fairy tale.
- skerit 3y ago
  Been using it for 4 or 5 years now.
creshal 3y ago
Can I use a no-bloat minimal window manager with Nvidia+AMD hybrid graphics yet? No? I'll stick to X¹¹ then.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  That sounds pretty uncommon.
  - creshal 3y ago
    If I wanted to win popularity contests I'd be using Windows.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      Sure, but open source is made of people solving their problems and then sharing… it might be the case that yours is too unique.
- zh3 3y ago
  As a user of stripped-down XFCE and being a Wayland virgin, interested to know what problems there are with 'no-bloat' WMs on Wayland?
  - creshal 3y ago
    Apparently, Nvidia drivers? The page says the proprietary driver (which I need for reasonable performance and battery life) only works "with limitations" in Gnome and KDE, which are both too terrible to even consider using.
    - Vilian 3y ago
      that look like proprietary nvidia problem
      - nzentzis 3y ago
jtriangle 3y ago
>are we wayland yet? No, No I am not, because things I care about are broken, and all of the supposed improvements wayland offers simply don't bother me. I've tried it, yes it feels a little snappier sometimes, but that's not a huge priority for me, personally. X11 is fine.
- irthomasthomas 3y ago
  Wayland feels like a different operating system to Linux. Linuw? I can't do this in linuw: https://twitter.com/xundecidability/status/1763219017160867840 https://twitter.com/xundecidability/status/17632190171608678...
  - SahAssar 3y ago
    X11 was neither developed for or is a part of linux. Like I get the folks who consider the GNU userland tools to be a part of the "linux"-and-stuff-we-expect-to-be-bundled, but X11 is pretty separate. Either way screen recording is working in all major wayland WMs, so you can do that in "linuw" (or whatever you choose to call it)
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      Yeah, X11 really isn't a Linux thing at all; I think the association is just that Linux distros are the current hacker/poweruser OS of choice, for a lot of reasons including tools that let people do cool/powerful things with the system, and X11 is one of those tools (or the backing framework for them, at least). I don't know what screen recording has to do with anything? Like, yes Wayland also makes the computer vision half of that example harder (you can do it in all major compositors, but details vary and GNOME is outright hostile to automating it) but Wayland doesn't have an answer to xdotool which is arguably the bigger component. (I am aware of tools like ydotool and such, but AFAIK they're all significantly weaker; they can blindly inject emulated key/mouse events, but not, say, target specific windows)
      - SahAssar 3y ago
doener 3y ago
"Last updated: 31 October 2022"
- viraptor 3y ago
  And the PRs are ignored unfortunately.
sleepydog 3y ago
I switch to wayland to play steam games because there is less screen tearing than with X11. Otherwise, I'm still on xorg because I find little annoyances in the alternatives to my X11 window manager of choice (dwm) and other little things that don't work well, like the Zoom desktop app being kind of wonky in sway.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  If you want to avoid having switch back and forth, you might try running things inside a wayland compositor under X11; for example, when I want to run waydroid I just run it in cage[0] in a window in my usual environment. [0] https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage
  - kelnos 3y ago
    I don't think that will solve the problem; if the X server is tearing, apps running inside a Wayland compositor that's running in the X server will also tear.
SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
Wayland is called Vyaleniy in Russian IT circles, which means "dried like beef jerky" and generally is disliked. 4chan calls it Gayland. Yeah, I know.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  To be fair, 4chan has derogatory names for everything.
jcarrano 3y ago
I will sit down with XFCE and X11 until the sharp edges have been filed and I will switch when wayland is mature. I'm really thankful for the people sacrificing their time to test all this stuff and experiencing the bugs. I, as much as I like the GNU/Linux desktop, have already suffered through enough system changes and now I need my computer to get actual work done. I feel updates used to break thinks more often and now everything works mostly fine. I remember long ago the issues with Polkit/dbus policies, changes in xorg drivers, the introduction of pulseaudio and then pipewire, systemd, GRUB2, problems with removable drives (that are thankfully solved since long), etc.
rcarmo 3y ago
Hmmm. No Remote Desktop server (I run xrdp on all my Linux boxes)
slyall 3y ago
Just as a datapoint I'll say I installed Ubuntu 22.04 18 months ago and it defaulted to Wayland. Since then I've had no problems with it. $ echo $XDG_SESSION_TYPE wayland
rperez333 3y ago
Is there any i3wm alternative that works with Wayland on Nvidia hardware (proprietary drivers)? I tried Sway and Hyprland last month but found neither ready for daily use.

43 points by skibz 3y ago

How is nvidia on wayland these days? Is running an nvidia gpu + gnome/kde + steam viable these days? Do most games work well?

bryanlarsen 3y ago
gnome & kde have links in the Nvidia section at the bottom with good articles showing current status.
bogwog 3y ago
I've been daily driving KDE/Wayland/Nvidia for about a year and it's perfectly usable. There are odd bugs every now and then, but nothing that's a show stopper.
- jtriangle 3y ago
  KDE/Wayland/Nvidia->random bugs KDE/X11/Nvidia->No random bugs It is a show stopper when the alternative is more reliable. If I'm playing around, ie, not doing actual work, sure, wayland is cool, and fine. I get the draw. When I'm trying to get something done, I'd much rather use X11 for now.
  - bogwog 3y ago
    I said it was perfectly usable and I meant that. It's my full-time primary workstation, which I use for "actual work" every day. I could waste time elaborating on why that is, listing the odd bugs I mentioned, etc. But I suspect you're part of that crowd that froths at the mouth whenever the name "Wayland" is brought up no matter what. No other explanation explains why you'd leap from "odd bugs" to the inability to "get something done". Instead, I'll just leave my system build so anyone passing by can give it a go if they want to actually try it out: * Fedora Kinoite 39 * Nvidia rtx 4090 (driver 545.29.06) * AMD Ryzen 9 7900
    - jtriangle 3y ago
      I'm not part of any group, much less one that 'froths' unless you're talking about frothing milk, in which case, yes, I am very much a part of the milk frother's group, that shit's delicious. That toungue in cheek answer is all you deserve, being that HN users like you are a big problem, ie, ones that assume liberally about other users. We'll see if you're in the worst of the worst camp if you fail to recant your assumption. You're using Fedora, which, they've patched up their flavor of KDE pretty well to work with Wayland/Nividia. I don't use Fedora, and I don't really like Fedora so switching isn't something I'm personally interested in, and the easy KDE installs I have access to through my distros of choice don't support Wayland/Nvidia well, but work fine with x11. And "x11 is fine" is a part of the discussion that, I don't see come up nearly enough in the "use wayland/don't use wayland" discussions online. What exactly do you get out of using wayland? The answer is "nothing worth more than a bugfree experience". Objectively. And don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for wayland, I get the benefits full well, and I don't think I'm rooting in vain, it'll get there. I also accept that "getting there" is going to involve pushing it into distros before it's really ready in order to generate bug reports. Debian handles this currently by defaulting to wayland where it can, and allowing for an easy way back to x11 if needed. I think that's reasonable enough. I also think debian should have had it defaulted the other way around for another year or two but, I'm far from 'frothing' about it. All that to say, wayland's not ready for prod. X11 is fine, and will continue to be fine until wayland is ready for prod, and like many things in the linux space, it is indeed better to wait until then unless you have an actual need that can't be satisfied by x11.
- saurik 3y ago
  Why use something "perfectly usable" with "odd bugs" when you can use something that "actually works"?
  - k8svet 3y ago
    You and everyone else in this thread know why. The list of benefits from Wayland is touted repeatedly, in every single one of these threads, for years. We get it, you don't care about mixed DPI, fractional scaling, HDR, non-tearing performance, VRR, a viable driver model for the 2020s, etc. You know, features that consumers expect. HN should ban these threads. They're g-d absolutely worse than the worst politics threads.
    - creshal 3y ago
      Consumers mostly expect their computers to actually work, these days. They neither know or care about what "a viable driver model for the 2020s" is, they want screensharing to not break every other month.
      - k8svet 3y ago
        You all really just drive home your ignorance when you say stuff like this. Screenshotting has never regressed to my knowledge, once it began working, in any wayland DE. I use Wayland. Every damn day. I make a lot of money doing software engineering. All day. I screen share all day.
        creshal 3y ago
        Screenshotting != Screensharing The last two jobs I worked in was in linux-heavy devops departments. The Wayland users are having far more trouble than any of the X11/Mac/Windows users, and probably more than all of them combined. Maybe it is possible that all of them are just "holding it wrong", but if Wayland is that easy to break, it's still a no sell for me.
        3y ago
fishpen0 3y ago
For me its a jittery nightmare. I can't even play a video in vlc and still have firefox scroll smoothly on another monitor. I can turn my desktop experience into a slide show if I set the refresh rate on all three monitors to 144hz. Its silly I'm looking at choosing between having a good linux desktop experience _or_ being able to use CUDA for ML/AI stuff OR having to build a second computer so I can have a gaming computer on AMD _and_ a work node on NVIDIA
Affric 3y ago
Below the performance you would like by a long way. Always improving.

Spivak 3y ago

Really happy to see that WayPipe has moved from a cute demo to a real tool. It's an absolutely insane implementation and I love it. If X.org hadn't made it a first-class feature there's no way we would have invented it today.

amelius 3y ago

Is anybody using it? There's this switch called WaylandEnable in my gdm3 config file, but I have to keep it false to stay out of trouble.

kreck 3y ago
Can confirm that you may run into trouble e.g. when requiring screenshot capabilities (via scrot in our case) hence we had to set the WaylandEnable to false as well.
Steltek 3y ago
Yes? All the time? "Stay out of trouble" is definitely not universal among Linux users. Not too long ago, the idea would have been kind of a fairy tale.
skerit 3y ago
Been using it for 4 or 5 years now.

creshal 3y ago

Can I use a no-bloat minimal window manager with Nvidia+AMD hybrid graphics yet? No? I'll stick to X¹¹ then.

bee_rider 3y ago
That sounds pretty uncommon.
- creshal 3y ago
  If I wanted to win popularity contests I'd be using Windows.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Sure, but open source is made of people solving their problems and then sharing… it might be the case that yours is too unique.
zh3 3y ago
As a user of stripped-down XFCE and being a Wayland virgin, interested to know what problems there are with 'no-bloat' WMs on Wayland?
- creshal 3y ago
  Apparently, Nvidia drivers? The page says the proprietary driver (which I need for reasonable performance and battery life) only works "with limitations" in Gnome and KDE, which are both too terrible to even consider using.
  - Vilian 3y ago
    that look like proprietary nvidia problem
    - nzentzis 3y ago

jtriangle 3y ago

>are we wayland yet? No, No I am not, because things I care about are broken, and all of the supposed improvements wayland offers simply don't bother me. I've tried it, yes it feels a little snappier sometimes, but that's not a huge priority for me, personally. X11 is fine.

irthomasthomas 3y ago
Wayland feels like a different operating system to Linux. Linuw? I can't do this in linuw: https://twitter.com/xundecidability/status/1763219017160867840 https://twitter.com/xundecidability/status/17632190171608678...
- SahAssar 3y ago
  X11 was neither developed for or is a part of linux. Like I get the folks who consider the GNU userland tools to be a part of the "linux"-and-stuff-we-expect-to-be-bundled, but X11 is pretty separate. Either way screen recording is working in all major wayland WMs, so you can do that in "linuw" (or whatever you choose to call it)
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    Yeah, X11 really isn't a Linux thing at all; I think the association is just that Linux distros are the current hacker/poweruser OS of choice, for a lot of reasons including tools that let people do cool/powerful things with the system, and X11 is one of those tools (or the backing framework for them, at least). I don't know what screen recording has to do with anything? Like, yes Wayland also makes the computer vision half of that example harder (you can do it in all major compositors, but details vary and GNOME is outright hostile to automating it) but Wayland doesn't have an answer to xdotool which is arguably the bigger component. (I am aware of tools like ydotool and such, but AFAIK they're all significantly weaker; they can blindly inject emulated key/mouse events, but not, say, target specific windows)
    - SahAssar 3y ago

doener 3y ago

"Last updated: 31 October 2022"

viraptor 3y ago
And the PRs are ignored unfortunately.

sleepydog 3y ago

I switch to wayland to play steam games because there is less screen tearing than with X11. Otherwise, I'm still on xorg because I find little annoyances in the alternatives to my X11 window manager of choice (dwm) and other little things that don't work well, like the Zoom desktop app being kind of wonky in sway.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
If you want to avoid having switch back and forth, you might try running things inside a wayland compositor under X11; for example, when I want to run waydroid I just run it in cage[0] in a window in my usual environment. [0] https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage
- kelnos 3y ago
  I don't think that will solve the problem; if the X server is tearing, apps running inside a Wayland compositor that's running in the X server will also tear.

SomeoneFromCA 3y ago

Wayland is called Vyaleniy in Russian IT circles, which means "dried like beef jerky" and generally is disliked. 4chan calls it Gayland. Yeah, I know.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
To be fair, 4chan has derogatory names for everything.

jcarrano 3y ago

I will sit down with XFCE and X11 until the sharp edges have been filed and I will switch when wayland is mature. I'm really thankful for the people sacrificing their time to test all this stuff and experiencing the bugs. I, as much as I like the GNU/Linux desktop, have already suffered through enough system changes and now I need my computer to get actual work done. I feel updates used to break thinks more often and now everything works mostly fine. I remember long ago the issues with Polkit/dbus policies, changes in xorg drivers, the introduction of pulseaudio and then pipewire, systemd, GRUB2, problems with removable drives (that are thankfully solved since long), etc.

rcarmo 3y ago

Hmmm. No Remote Desktop server (I run xrdp on all my Linux boxes)

slyall 3y ago

Just as a datapoint I'll say I installed Ubuntu 22.04 18 months ago and it defaulted to Wayland. Since then I've had no problems with it. $ echo $XDG_SESSION_TYPE wayland

rperez333 3y ago

Is there any i3wm alternative that works with Wayland on Nvidia hardware (proprietary drivers)? I tried Sway and Hyprland last month but found neither ready for daily use.