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IMHO the difference is that KDE took the classic Windows desktop as starting point and has developed it into something that's now actually better than the Win10

IMHO the difference is that KDE took the classic Windows desktop as starting point and has developed it into something that's now actually better than the Win10/11 desktop. GNOME OTH might be trying to imitate macOS but if that's actually the case they are doing a very poor job (I spend most of my time on a Mac, but have recently switched from GNOME to KDE on my Linux laptop because after updating to Ubuntu 24 I was finally fed up with GNOME's UX only ever getting worse, never improving). PS: switching from GNOME to a KDE desktop session was absolutely trivial and quick on Ubuntu btw.

AlienRobot 3y ago
Ignoring all the other bad stuff with Windows 11, one thing that made me switch to Linux was the ugly "modern" design. iirc, someone on HN said that Windows designers don't even use Windows, they use Mac. But then I switched to Linux and a lot of apps, specially gnome and gnome-inspired apps, have such terrible design as well. I'm going to spare you the details because I could rant about it for hours.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - khimaros 3y ago
    i think you could have communicated this more effectively without the ad hominems.
  - AlienRobot 3y ago
    This almost makes me want to try a Mac. Everyone is copying them, they must be pretty good, right? I just miss it when my apps had main menus, and dialog windows instead of transitions, and it didn't feel like every window was a browser even when they weren't electron apps... and I miss the window borders, and the colored icons, and when themes weren't just light or dark and...
    - flohofwoe 3y ago
      You'll be disappointed. Even Apple isn't adhering to its own Human Interface Guidelines anymore. It might be the least bad option of the current desktop environments, but that doesn't mean much.
    - toyg 3y ago
      As sibling comment says, you'll be disappointed - and worse, unlike on Windows or Linux there will be no way to change things you don't like. With Apple, it's their way or the highway. For example, they just don't do themes at all, and have slowly deprecated or removed even the basic customization features they used to do well (like changing the icon for a folder).
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    IMHO The pinacle of the Windows desktop was Windows 2000. Windows XP was ok except for the default bubble gum theme. We don't talk about Windows Vista and Windows 8. Windows 7 was sort-of ok. Windows 10 is was trying to salvage some of the Windows 8 mess with little success. Can't comment on Windows 11 because I'll stick with Windows 10 as long as possible ;)
    - mjevans 3y ago
      I agree with this more when you include how the then current versions of MS Office felt to use. Ribbons might have a place at the absolute entry level of usability, but they'll never replace a well designed menu system that includes keyboard shortcut documentation in the UI within a super information dense presentation.
      - grepfru_it 3y ago
        >keyboard shortcut documentation Who are you targeting as the main user of this software? Most users do not depend on keyboard shortcuts but rather repeatable actions they can use the mouse for. The ribbon only annoys power users which is a number much much smaller than 50% of all users. Plus keyboard shortcuts still exist with the ribbon system. As someone who has spent a lot of time with “regular users”, no body is complaining about the ribbon…
        pessimizer 3y ago
        > includes keyboard shortcut documentation You seem to have omitted a word. > Plus keyboard shortcuts still exist with the ribbon system. So this objection is completely manufactured? > The ribbon only annoys power users which is a number much much smaller than 50% of all users. It's 0% of the users who are new to the software, and 90% of the users who have used the software for some time. The UI shouldn't be optimized for people who are only going to use the software a few times unless the software is only meant to be used a few times. But in the case of office software, what you want is affordances that can be eliminated at the user's own pace while they get to know the software over years or decades. Things like indicating the keyboard shortcut next to the menu entry, which is standard for most UI toolkits. Or things like allowing the "ribbon" to be disabled, which I would be really surprised if you could come up with a reasonable opposition to.
everybodyknows 3y ago
> Ubuntu 24 You're running a pre-release? https://ubuntu.com/download/desktop https://ubuntu.com/download/desktop
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  Ooops, it's actually 23.10. Not sure why I got confused (for some reason the version number 24.04 was fixed in my mind).
pxc 3y ago
> IMHO the difference is that KDE took the classic Windows desktop as starting point and has developed it into something that's now actually better than the Win10/11 desktop. In some areas KDE has also taken inspiration from macOS, and imo significantly improved over the original. The best example in my view is the Present Windows desktop effect, which is fundamentally a take on Exposé/Mission Control but massively outdoes those equivalents in usability by adding fuzzy filtering as you type to select windows. A less appealing version of that (Contexts) is something I have to pay money to a proprietary app developer for on macOS.
keeglin 3y ago
I recently started using a Mac at work and Gnome aping MacOS is the only thing that makes sense. The applications selector, the settings drop-downs... spatial Nautilus... it didn't just start with Gnome 3. These are all poorly-implemented, half-baked versions of MacOS features. It has been going on for years. I mean, the thin scroll bars for $deity's sake! On MacOS this makes sense because the trackpad and trackpad/mouse work, and work very well. On Gnome, it makes no sense at all since you can't hit them with the mouse pointer. The pain is very real with Gnome. It's a very, very poor ape of MacOS.
- kzhe 3y ago
  I disagree. For me, it's superior.
kzhe 3y ago
GNOME is better than macos imo
- walteweiss 3y ago
  As a decade old macOS user, I agree. I don’t want to use macOS after Gnome. I like the new one. It’s 45 now, but I think the major update was either 44 or 43.

AlienRobot 3y ago

Ignoring all the other bad stuff with Windows 11, one thing that made me switch to Linux was the ugly "modern" design. iirc, someone on HN said that Windows designers don't even use Windows, they use Mac. But then I switched to Linux and a lot of apps, specially gnome and gnome-inspired apps, have such terrible design as well. I'm going to spare you the details because I could rant about it for hours.

shrimp_emoji 3y ago
[flagged]
- khimaros 3y ago
  i think you could have communicated this more effectively without the ad hominems.
- AlienRobot 3y ago
  This almost makes me want to try a Mac. Everyone is copying them, they must be pretty good, right? I just miss it when my apps had main menus, and dialog windows instead of transitions, and it didn't feel like every window was a browser even when they weren't electron apps... and I miss the window borders, and the colored icons, and when themes weren't just light or dark and...
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    You'll be disappointed. Even Apple isn't adhering to its own Human Interface Guidelines anymore. It might be the least bad option of the current desktop environments, but that doesn't mean much.
  - toyg 3y ago
    As sibling comment says, you'll be disappointed - and worse, unlike on Windows or Linux there will be no way to change things you don't like. With Apple, it's their way or the highway. For example, they just don't do themes at all, and have slowly deprecated or removed even the basic customization features they used to do well (like changing the icon for a folder).
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  IMHO The pinacle of the Windows desktop was Windows 2000. Windows XP was ok except for the default bubble gum theme. We don't talk about Windows Vista and Windows 8. Windows 7 was sort-of ok. Windows 10 is was trying to salvage some of the Windows 8 mess with little success. Can't comment on Windows 11 because I'll stick with Windows 10 as long as possible ;)
  - mjevans 3y ago
    I agree with this more when you include how the then current versions of MS Office felt to use. Ribbons might have a place at the absolute entry level of usability, but they'll never replace a well designed menu system that includes keyboard shortcut documentation in the UI within a super information dense presentation.
    - grepfru_it 3y ago
      >keyboard shortcut documentation Who are you targeting as the main user of this software? Most users do not depend on keyboard shortcuts but rather repeatable actions they can use the mouse for. The ribbon only annoys power users which is a number much much smaller than 50% of all users. Plus keyboard shortcuts still exist with the ribbon system. As someone who has spent a lot of time with “regular users”, no body is complaining about the ribbon…
      - pessimizer 3y ago
        > includes keyboard shortcut documentation You seem to have omitted a word. > Plus keyboard shortcuts still exist with the ribbon system. So this objection is completely manufactured? > The ribbon only annoys power users which is a number much much smaller than 50% of all users. It's 0% of the users who are new to the software, and 90% of the users who have used the software for some time. The UI shouldn't be optimized for people who are only going to use the software a few times unless the software is only meant to be used a few times. But in the case of office software, what you want is affordances that can be eliminated at the user's own pace while they get to know the software over years or decades. Things like indicating the keyboard shortcut next to the menu entry, which is standard for most UI toolkits. Or things like allowing the "ribbon" to be disabled, which I would be really surprised if you could come up with a reasonable opposition to.

everybodyknows 3y ago

> Ubuntu 24 You're running a pre-release? https://ubuntu.com/download/desktop https://ubuntu.com/download/desktop

flohofwoe 3y ago
Ooops, it's actually 23.10. Not sure why I got confused (for some reason the version number 24.04 was fixed in my mind).

pxc 3y ago

> IMHO the difference is that KDE took the classic Windows desktop as starting point and has developed it into something that's now actually better than the Win10/11 desktop. In some areas KDE has also taken inspiration from macOS, and imo significantly improved over the original. The best example in my view is the Present Windows desktop effect, which is fundamentally a take on Exposé/Mission Control but massively outdoes those equivalents in usability by adding fuzzy filtering as you type to select windows. A less appealing version of that (Contexts) is something I have to pay money to a proprietary app developer for on macOS.

keeglin 3y ago

I recently started using a Mac at work and Gnome aping MacOS is the only thing that makes sense. The applications selector, the settings drop-downs... spatial Nautilus... it didn't just start with Gnome 3. These are all poorly-implemented, half-baked versions of MacOS features. It has been going on for years. I mean, the thin scroll bars for $deity's sake! On MacOS this makes sense because the trackpad and trackpad/mouse work, and work very well. On Gnome, it makes no sense at all since you can't hit them with the mouse pointer. The pain is very real with Gnome. It's a very, very poor ape of MacOS.

kzhe 3y ago
I disagree. For me, it's superior.

kzhe 3y ago

GNOME is better than macos imo

walteweiss 3y ago
As a decade old macOS user, I agree. I don’t want to use macOS after Gnome. I like the new one. It’s 45 now, but I think the major update was either 44 or 43.