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Your link is the worldwide view. Just the European one [1] shows that only 11 out of 38 countries have an adoption of CCs >50%, 16/38 are at >40%. Additionally

Your link is the worldwide view. Just the European one [1] shows that only 11 out of 38 countries have an adoption of CCs >50%, 16/38 are at >40%. Additionally, just because we have credit cards doesn't mean we use them in daily life. SEPA based payments work out far better. [1] https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit_cards/Europe/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit...

morphle 3y ago
>just because we have credit cards doesn't mean we use them I concur, using credit cards is rather dangerous, especially online and in app forms for both buyer and seller alike [6]. >SEPA based payments work out far better Indeed, but since recently (2018?) European banks couldn't confiscate your money on a whim, like the US credit card companies did for decades. Now European banks do too, just like PayPal [4]. Enshittfication was first coined by Cory Doctorrow [3] here [2] and it applies everywhere now [1]. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/6fb1602d-a08b-4a8c-bac0-047b7d64aba5 https://www.ft.com/content/6fb1602d-a08b-4a8c-bac0-047b7d64a... [2] https://doctorow.medium.com/social-quitting-1ce85b67b456 https://doctorow.medium.com/social-quitting-1ce85b67b456 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification [4] https://emerchantauthority.com/blog/what-to-do-if-your-paypal-account-gets-frozen/#:~:text=the%20resolution%20centre.-,Why%20PayPal%20Freeze%20PayPal%20account%3F,or%20to%20comply%20with%20regulations https://emerchantauthority.com/blog/what-to-do-if-your-paypa.... [5] https://hn.algolia.com/?q=freeze+bank https://hn.algolia.com/?q=freeze+bank [6] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=chargeback&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- relativ575 3y ago
  > I concur, using credit cards is rather dangerous Your link is about chargeback. I'm pretty much exclusively using credit cards for daily payment and I can't even remember the last time I got any problems. I never pay interest either. I get that you don't like or trust credit card, and it isn't popular in Europe, but don't be generalizing. Even in Europe my credit cards work well, except for the unpopularity of Amex.
  - morphle 3y ago
    >I get that you don't like or trust credit card I do not get why people insist on defending the credit card companies and their ungoing enshittification and changing rules and laws[1]. I would prefer you refuting my central argument[2]. Credit card laws and rules have many more problems than just chargebacks. For two decades online payment webpages stole credit card numbers and stole money from people. I could list many more documented cases. Elsewhere someone argues that debit cards are not credit cards. I agree. Of course Starlink forms reject debit cards too. [1] https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/when-company-declines-your-credit-or-debit-card https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/when-company-declines-your... [2] https://paulgraham.com/disagree.html https://paulgraham.com/disagree.html
    - rescbr 3y ago
      > For two decades online payment webpages stole credit card numbers and stole money from people. I could list many more documented cases. In this case, it's better than debit cards as you are not out of money until the bank reverts the fraudulent charge. Now with 3DS this is way better, but I am way wearier of using my debit card number online (so I generate temporary cards) compared to credit - if they steal the card number, there is no problem.
piva00 3y ago
That's for credit cards, debit cards penetration is much higher, my guess from working in a big fintech previously is that around 85-90% of people with a bank account in the EU have at least a debit card.
- FeepingCreature 3y ago
  However, debit cards are not credit cards or compatible with credit cards, so I'm not sure what the relevance of your point is.
  - nicolaslem 3y ago
    Sure on paper they are different things and they both involve different parties but in practice both are accepted everywhere. I never had a credit card but I have been using debit cards for decades and only twice an actual credit card was required: for booking a hotel abroad and for renting a car abroad.
    - FeepingCreature 3y ago
      For physical payment, sure. Lots of websites still only accept Visa/Mastercard.
      - diggan 3y ago
        I've been online in various ways since 2000s sometime, and have never stumbled upon a website/service/shop that doesn't accept my debit cards (which are Visa and Mastercard). Are European debit cards maybe somehow different than US ones, and the experience differs between the two?
        alphabettsy 3y ago
        Yes, European debit cards often don’t use Visa or Mastercard. That’s changing though.
        3y ago
lxgr 3y ago
> SEPA based payments work out far better. For many things they do, but I'd never order from an new/semi-reputable company online via SEPA credit transfer, and for analogous reasons a company would never accept SEPA direct debit from unknown customers. If you have a credit card but don't want to use it for an uncertain online pre-order of a new product, what do you use it for?
- diggan 3y ago
  > If you have a credit card but don't want to use it for an uncertain online pre-order of a new product, what do you use it for? I have credit and debit cards. Basically no point in using the credit card, so I only use it for emergencies when nothing else works, which has been exactly once in my life so far, and that was in Mexico. In Spain (home) / around Europe I've never had an issue with my debit card, so it's what I keep using everywhere.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Sure, debit cards offer essentially the same protections (a defined dispute process, limited fraud liability etc.) in most countries and schemes. What I meant was: Why use SEPA credit transfer (or more generally any other payment method without a dispute process) if you don't trust the merchant?
- calmoo 3y ago
  Credit cards are a useful backstop to have if for some reason you don't have access to your main current account / have a large bill to pay and have money in savings. 99% of the time when I use my credit card, it's to rent a car in the USA.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Are you thinking credit cards vs. debit cards, or cards vs. bank transfers? I agree that the former are largely equivalent modulo liquidity concerns, but for the latter, cards and push-based bank account payments (at least in SEPA) have significantly different rights and liabilities.

morphle 3y ago

>just because we have credit cards doesn't mean we use them I concur, using credit cards is rather dangerous, especially online and in app forms for both buyer and seller alike [6]. >SEPA based payments work out far better Indeed, but since recently (2018?) European banks couldn't confiscate your money on a whim, like the US credit card companies did for decades. Now European banks do too, just like PayPal [4]. Enshittfication was first coined by Cory Doctorrow [3] here [2] and it applies everywhere now [1]. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/6fb1602d-a08b-4a8c-bac0-047b7d64aba5 https://www.ft.com/content/6fb1602d-a08b-4a8c-bac0-047b7d64a... [2] https://doctorow.medium.com/social-quitting-1ce85b67b456 https://doctorow.medium.com/social-quitting-1ce85b67b456 [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification [4] https://emerchantauthority.com/blog/what-to-do-if-your-paypal-account-gets-frozen/#:~:text=the%20resolution%20centre.-,Why%20PayPal%20Freeze%20PayPal%20account%3F,or%20to%20comply%20with%20regulations https://emerchantauthority.com/blog/what-to-do-if-your-paypa.... [5] https://hn.algolia.com/?q=freeze+bank https://hn.algolia.com/?q=freeze+bank [6] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=chargeback&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

relativ575 3y ago
> I concur, using credit cards is rather dangerous Your link is about chargeback. I'm pretty much exclusively using credit cards for daily payment and I can't even remember the last time I got any problems. I never pay interest either. I get that you don't like or trust credit card, and it isn't popular in Europe, but don't be generalizing. Even in Europe my credit cards work well, except for the unpopularity of Amex.
- morphle 3y ago
  >I get that you don't like or trust credit card I do not get why people insist on defending the credit card companies and their ungoing enshittification and changing rules and laws[1]. I would prefer you refuting my central argument[2]. Credit card laws and rules have many more problems than just chargebacks. For two decades online payment webpages stole credit card numbers and stole money from people. I could list many more documented cases. Elsewhere someone argues that debit cards are not credit cards. I agree. Of course Starlink forms reject debit cards too. [1] https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/when-company-declines-your-credit-or-debit-card https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/when-company-declines-your... [2] https://paulgraham.com/disagree.html https://paulgraham.com/disagree.html
  - rescbr 3y ago
    > For two decades online payment webpages stole credit card numbers and stole money from people. I could list many more documented cases. In this case, it's better than debit cards as you are not out of money until the bank reverts the fraudulent charge. Now with 3DS this is way better, but I am way wearier of using my debit card number online (so I generate temporary cards) compared to credit - if they steal the card number, there is no problem.

piva00 3y ago

That's for credit cards, debit cards penetration is much higher, my guess from working in a big fintech previously is that around 85-90% of people with a bank account in the EU have at least a debit card.

FeepingCreature 3y ago
However, debit cards are not credit cards or compatible with credit cards, so I'm not sure what the relevance of your point is.
- nicolaslem 3y ago
  Sure on paper they are different things and they both involve different parties but in practice both are accepted everywhere. I never had a credit card but I have been using debit cards for decades and only twice an actual credit card was required: for booking a hotel abroad and for renting a car abroad.
  - FeepingCreature 3y ago
    For physical payment, sure. Lots of websites still only accept Visa/Mastercard.
    - diggan 3y ago
      I've been online in various ways since 2000s sometime, and have never stumbled upon a website/service/shop that doesn't accept my debit cards (which are Visa and Mastercard). Are European debit cards maybe somehow different than US ones, and the experience differs between the two?
      - alphabettsy 3y ago
        Yes, European debit cards often don’t use Visa or Mastercard. That’s changing though.
      - 3y ago

lxgr 3y ago

> SEPA based payments work out far better. For many things they do, but I'd never order from an new/semi-reputable company online via SEPA credit transfer, and for analogous reasons a company would never accept SEPA direct debit from unknown customers. If you have a credit card but don't want to use it for an uncertain online pre-order of a new product, what do you use it for?

diggan 3y ago
> If you have a credit card but don't want to use it for an uncertain online pre-order of a new product, what do you use it for? I have credit and debit cards. Basically no point in using the credit card, so I only use it for emergencies when nothing else works, which has been exactly once in my life so far, and that was in Mexico. In Spain (home) / around Europe I've never had an issue with my debit card, so it's what I keep using everywhere.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Sure, debit cards offer essentially the same protections (a defined dispute process, limited fraud liability etc.) in most countries and schemes. What I meant was: Why use SEPA credit transfer (or more generally any other payment method without a dispute process) if you don't trust the merchant?
calmoo 3y ago
Credit cards are a useful backstop to have if for some reason you don't have access to your main current account / have a large bill to pay and have money in savings. 99% of the time when I use my credit card, it's to rent a car in the USA.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Are you thinking credit cards vs. debit cards, or cards vs. bank transfers? I agree that the former are largely equivalent modulo liquidity concerns, but for the latter, cards and push-based bank account payments (at least in SEPA) have significantly different rights and liabilities.