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Not necessarily. It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential; and considering how easy it is to show

Not necessarily. It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential; and considering how easy it is to show the percentage of pirating users versus legitimate users (probably 95%+), it's not a good look. There's also the issue that, unlike prior emulators, Yuzu risks running afoul of DMCA anti-trafficking provisions for circumvention devices and software that uses circumvention devices. So, while per se emulating the Switch might be legal, decrypting the games may be illegal (as would software that is useless if it is unable to do that decryption). Edit: Strongly recommend reading my follow up comment explaining historical precedent: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39530558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39530558

yamazakiwi 3y ago
There are other emulators besides Yuzu and they would still exist if Yuzu didn't.
Gigachad 3y ago
I'd say most piracy is people with an actual console that they have modded to load pirated games.
- KeplerBoy 3y ago
  Impossible to say. Downloading yuzu and watching a YouTube video to get roms going is easier than obtaining a modded switch, that one is certain.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
bentley 3y ago
> Not necessarily. It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential… Well, no. Pirated Switch games can be played on a hacked Switch or a flashcart with no emulation necessary. Common sense suggests emulation would be significantly more common, but can Nintendo prove that in court, or prove that the leak wouldn’t have happened without Yuzu’s existence?
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Nintendo can't prove the leak wouldn't have happened without Yuzu. But they don't have to. They can simply show that Yuzu made it infinitely worse. Also, suing Yuzu does not preclude suing emulator makers or flashcart makers - they can all be sued as they all have culpability.
  - hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
    So can companies of leaved PC games sue nvidia or windows?
    - gjsman-1000 3y ago
      The law doesn't work on strict abstract principles. Windows has a million uses of which piracy is just one. Yuzu has two uses (playing legitimate backups and pirated backups), of which Nintendo may successfully argue, both are piracy (due to the circumvention of encryption in both cases). In which case, the only possible use in 99.9%+ of cases... is for illegal activity.
      - tavavex 3y ago
        I don't think it's likely that software developers can be sued on the grounds of "some people use it for illegal activity". Can IP rights holders sue any torrent tracker on that basis? Not to mention that playing backups of your own games is explicitly legal in many places, and I'd be shocked if it isn't in the US. Lastly, one can make an argument that the purpose of Yuzu isn't playing "Switch games", but emulating the Switch hardware stack, which is legal. For example, writing your own Switch homebrew and running it on Yuzu is permitted.
      - wtetzner 3y ago
        > Yuzu has two uses (playing legitimate backups and pirated backups) And maybe for developing homebrew games?
  - resizeitplz 3y ago
withinboredom 3y ago
> It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential That. Literally doesn't make any logical sense. That's like arguing that if computers didn't exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential ... or if electricity didn't exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential.
- UberFly 3y ago
  Logical sense? I can't really just play the pirated game on my home electricity. Just like you can't sue the road when a car runs you down.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    Well, let me put it this way. Why don't they sue Dell then? If Dell computers didn't exist, pirated games couldn't be played! Or sue themselves, because if hacked Switches didn't exist, pirated games couldn't be played!
  - Zambyte 3y ago
    I really can't just play the pirate game on a software emulator either. It needs an operating system to run on, hardware to run the operating system on, etc.
- Solvency 3y ago
  Of course, it doesn't make sense. But Nintendo has infinite money and infinite lawyers compared to these people. That means they can do whatever they want with the law.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    That's when you go to the judge and ask for a summary dismissal on the grounds that it is ridiculous (they should be suing the power companies instead!). Maybe they say yes and you walk away.
monocasa 3y ago
I mean, the switch has been hacked to hell and back and is more than capable of playing pirated games without any emulators. It isn't necessarily easy to show stats on pirating users since they obviously work to cloak that behavior from Nintendo.
summerlight 3y ago
> unlike prior emulators, Yuzu risks running afoul of DMCA anti-trafficking provisions for circumvention devices and software that uses circumvention devices This is interesting, it'd be great to have a link to explain this matter more deeply.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Sure. Just look up the DeCSS controversy which got the creator of a DVD ripping software arrested and barely avoiding extradition, or the 09 F9 controversy where the MPAA attempted to censor a number from the internet. This provision in the DMCA has been most often used against developers of unauthorized DVD copying software, Blu-ray copying software, etc; and the force of the legal argument has been well proven previously. It nearly killed RealPlayer when they made unauthorized software for DVD playback. You can also see this law invoked in Apple v Psystar; when Apple sued Psystar for circumventing protections in macOS to allow running macOS on non-Apple hardware. That lawsuit was dragged all the way to the final appeal to SCOTUS - and Psystar was shredded the whole way. Expect Apple v Psystar to come up in a Nintendo vs Yuzu lawsuit; because running macOS on unapproved hardware sounds awfully similar to running games on unapproved hardware. If Nintendo were to succeed invoking it here - emulation would be legal. Decrypting games would be illegal. Consoles before, say, the Wii (IIRC) would be free to emulate due to not being encrypted - but newer games, being encrypted, would be off-limits just like DVDs.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    That was one of the few times, when I can look back and feel like the user has won. It has been something of a steady decline since. I would love for some clear indication that we have some digital rights left, but I am not certain the same reaction would not be possible to be replicated today.
  - Acrobatic_Road 3y ago
    I wonder if it would be possible to develop a Switch emulator without the ability to decrypt any games. Users would be expected to bring already-decrypted games, which they could decrypt via an "unrelated" program.

yamazakiwi 3y ago

There are other emulators besides Yuzu and they would still exist if Yuzu didn't.

Gigachad 3y ago

I'd say most piracy is people with an actual console that they have modded to load pirated games.

KeplerBoy 3y ago
Impossible to say. Downloading yuzu and watching a YouTube video to get roms going is easier than obtaining a modded switch, that one is certain.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

bentley 3y ago

> Not necessarily. It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential… Well, no. Pirated Switch games can be played on a hacked Switch or a flashcart with no emulation necessary. Common sense suggests emulation would be significantly more common, but can Nintendo prove that in court, or prove that the leak wouldn’t have happened without Yuzu’s existence?

gjsman-1000 3y ago
Nintendo can't prove the leak wouldn't have happened without Yuzu. But they don't have to. They can simply show that Yuzu made it infinitely worse. Also, suing Yuzu does not preclude suing emulator makers or flashcart makers - they can all be sued as they all have culpability.
- hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
  So can companies of leaved PC games sue nvidia or windows?
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    The law doesn't work on strict abstract principles. Windows has a million uses of which piracy is just one. Yuzu has two uses (playing legitimate backups and pirated backups), of which Nintendo may successfully argue, both are piracy (due to the circumvention of encryption in both cases). In which case, the only possible use in 99.9%+ of cases... is for illegal activity.
    - tavavex 3y ago
      I don't think it's likely that software developers can be sued on the grounds of "some people use it for illegal activity". Can IP rights holders sue any torrent tracker on that basis? Not to mention that playing backups of your own games is explicitly legal in many places, and I'd be shocked if it isn't in the US. Lastly, one can make an argument that the purpose of Yuzu isn't playing "Switch games", but emulating the Switch hardware stack, which is legal. For example, writing your own Switch homebrew and running it on Yuzu is permitted.
    - wtetzner 3y ago
      > Yuzu has two uses (playing legitimate backups and pirated backups) And maybe for developing homebrew games?
- resizeitplz 3y ago

withinboredom 3y ago

> It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential That. Literally doesn't make any logical sense. That's like arguing that if computers didn't exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential ... or if electricity didn't exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential.

UberFly 3y ago
Logical sense? I can't really just play the pirated game on my home electricity. Just like you can't sue the road when a car runs you down.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  Well, let me put it this way. Why don't they sue Dell then? If Dell computers didn't exist, pirated games couldn't be played! Or sue themselves, because if hacked Switches didn't exist, pirated games couldn't be played!
- Zambyte 3y ago
  I really can't just play the pirate game on a software emulator either. It needs an operating system to run on, hardware to run the operating system on, etc.
Solvency 3y ago
Of course, it doesn't make sense. But Nintendo has infinite money and infinite lawyers compared to these people. That means they can do whatever they want with the law.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  That's when you go to the judge and ask for a summary dismissal on the grounds that it is ridiculous (they should be suing the power companies instead!). Maybe they say yes and you walk away.

monocasa 3y ago

I mean, the switch has been hacked to hell and back and is more than capable of playing pirated games without any emulators. It isn't necessarily easy to show stats on pirating users since they obviously work to cloak that behavior from Nintendo.

summerlight 3y ago

> unlike prior emulators, Yuzu risks running afoul of DMCA anti-trafficking provisions for circumvention devices and software that uses circumvention devices This is interesting, it'd be great to have a link to explain this matter more deeply.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
Sure. Just look up the DeCSS controversy which got the creator of a DVD ripping software arrested and barely avoiding extradition, or the 09 F9 controversy where the MPAA attempted to censor a number from the internet. This provision in the DMCA has been most often used against developers of unauthorized DVD copying software, Blu-ray copying software, etc; and the force of the legal argument has been well proven previously. It nearly killed RealPlayer when they made unauthorized software for DVD playback. You can also see this law invoked in Apple v Psystar; when Apple sued Psystar for circumventing protections in macOS to allow running macOS on non-Apple hardware. That lawsuit was dragged all the way to the final appeal to SCOTUS - and Psystar was shredded the whole way. Expect Apple v Psystar to come up in a Nintendo vs Yuzu lawsuit; because running macOS on unapproved hardware sounds awfully similar to running games on unapproved hardware. If Nintendo were to succeed invoking it here - emulation would be legal. Decrypting games would be illegal. Consoles before, say, the Wii (IIRC) would be free to emulate due to not being encrypted - but newer games, being encrypted, would be off-limits just like DVDs.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  That was one of the few times, when I can look back and feel like the user has won. It has been something of a steady decline since. I would love for some clear indication that we have some digital rights left, but I am not certain the same reaction would not be possible to be replicated today.
- Acrobatic_Road 3y ago
  I wonder if it would be possible to develop a Switch emulator without the ability to decrypt any games. Users would be expected to bring already-decrypted games, which they could decrypt via an "unrelated" program.