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> You might say, “Aline, why can’t I just make up offers?” We could never, in good conscience, advise that. It’s unethical, and though I’d argue that while Meta

> You might say, “Aline, why can’t I just make up offers?” We could never, in good conscience, advise that. It’s unethical, and though I’d argue that while Meta’s negotiation practices are also unethical, that’s not the way to win. Outside of ethical considerations, while the risks of getting caught are low, they’re not zero. Lying about offers, in our mind, is the last refuge of the incompetent. Yeah I'm just gonna take my chances on that one

Jcampuzano2 3y ago
I like how they argue that its unethical and for that reason you shouldn't do it, while also stating they know that Meta itself is unethical in their own negotiation. Sorry if the company is willing to lie and extort me I have no guilty conscious doing it back. Hell, I'd even argue that it'd be incompetent to NOT do it back for your own benefit.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  Ok, and then Meta hands you an offer and then when you go to sign it suddenly becomes $100k less. Do you not think there are generally agreed upon standards that people negotiate with?
  - jobs_throwaway 3y ago
    I don't think 'we're going to lowball you by $50-100k / year unless you can show us a competing offer' is an agreed upon standard, no.
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      You think wrong, then. Making an offer that is out of the market range is very standard in a negotiation (even if you don’t think it’s very fair).
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flashgordon 3y ago
How about just "walk away" - it will atleast signal your self-respect and confidence (ok if you are truly desperate thats a diff thing). I was asked to share my counter offers - I told them that is unethical so would never share confidential letters from other companies. Seemed to have worked just fine - Ofcourse in this market where each job has a 1000 applications short of being the BDFL of a hot field - almost nothing else is not going to help you negotiate.
borroka 3y ago
Exactly. Like hiring managers, recruiters and their cousins do not lie to the candidate. It is a game, and one has to use the necessary tools, including lying (in a reasonable neighborhood of truth) about one's experience and the offers received, to achieve the goal, which is to earn as much as possible from the company we want to work for. For the people in the back, being honest makes you, and me, and everyone else undesirable. We've all had moments, days, even weeks of frustration, anger, disillusionment, technical incompetence, days we'd rather spend fighting with a gorilla than showing up for work, but we certainly don't say that when asked, "How do you handle conflict at work?" So I usually lie and present myself as a saint, but in a pragmatic way. I don't want to be perceived as a weak person, after all.

Jcampuzano2 3y ago

I like how they argue that its unethical and for that reason you shouldn't do it, while also stating they know that Meta itself is unethical in their own negotiation. Sorry if the company is willing to lie and extort me I have no guilty conscious doing it back. Hell, I'd even argue that it'd be incompetent to NOT do it back for your own benefit.

saagarjha 3y ago
Ok, and then Meta hands you an offer and then when you go to sign it suddenly becomes $100k less. Do you not think there are generally agreed upon standards that people negotiate with?
- jobs_throwaway 3y ago
  I don't think 'we're going to lowball you by $50-100k / year unless you can show us a competing offer' is an agreed upon standard, no.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    You think wrong, then. Making an offer that is out of the market range is very standard in a negotiation (even if you don’t think it’s very fair).

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flashgordon 3y ago

How about just "walk away" - it will atleast signal your self-respect and confidence (ok if you are truly desperate thats a diff thing). I was asked to share my counter offers - I told them that is unethical so would never share confidential letters from other companies. Seemed to have worked just fine - Ofcourse in this market where each job has a 1000 applications short of being the BDFL of a hot field - almost nothing else is not going to help you negotiate.

borroka 3y ago

Exactly. Like hiring managers, recruiters and their cousins do not lie to the candidate. It is a game, and one has to use the necessary tools, including lying (in a reasonable neighborhood of truth) about one's experience and the offers received, to achieve the goal, which is to earn as much as possible from the company we want to work for. For the people in the back, being honest makes you, and me, and everyone else undesirable. We've all had moments, days, even weeks of frustration, anger, disillusionment, technical incompetence, days we'd rather spend fighting with a gorilla than showing up for work, but we certainly don't say that when asked, "How do you handle conflict at work?" So I usually lie and present myself as a saint, but in a pragmatic way. I don't want to be perceived as a weak person, after all.