4 ms·

> The ctrl key has been moved to the far left, which is a welcome change. TBH it's weird to hear this so often. Macs also have the same "Fn on the far left" la

> The ctrl key has been moved to the far left, which is a welcome change. TBH it's weird to hear this so often. Macs also have the same "Fn on the far left" layout as ThinkPads and Macs/ThinkPads have basically won in the tech space. I got a Dell work laptop and I thought this wouldn't be a big deal, but having used a ThinkPad or a Mac for 20 years I couldn't adjust (which is wild, because I got over Neovim's D/dd abominable betrayal in a few days).

eviks 3y ago
Macs have a better design here - they use the more convenient thumb for Ctrl functions, so fn on the far left is not relevant But on a PC far left key is easier to press with a palm than the much less useful fn, so it's a welcome improvement in the default layout
- kristianp 3y ago
  > they use the more convenient thumb for Ctrl functions It's subjective. > palm Did you mean to say you're pressing a button with your palm?
  - eviks 3y ago
    Rsi / emacs pinkies are objective maladies, and for (shift) control palm presses are one of the solutions
- camgunz 3y ago
  Nah in the terminal where I spend 90% of my time Ctrl is Ctrl.
  - eviks 3y ago
    Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent
    - camgunz 3y ago
      > Macs have a better design here > Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent If we're saying rebinding is an acceptable solution then what does it matter what order the keys are in? You also can't really rebind the Fn/Ctrl/Option/Cmd to do what you're suggesting in macOS. I learned this using a ThinkPad USB keyboard on a Mac trying to get it to use Ctrl for the things you're used to on a non-Mac keyboard: there are a lot of clashes. For instance if you map Cmd-C -> Ctrl-C how do you copy things (or cancel things) in a terminal? I ended up binding the ThinkPad's keys to be what they would be on the Mac's keyboard.
      - eviks 3y ago
        > does it matter what order the keys are in? The amount of rebinding still differs due to Alt, defaults unfortunately matter even if you change them. > if you map Cmd-C -> Ctrl-C how do you copy things How do you do it on Windows where it's the same combo from the start? But also: by making it conditional on selection or simply using another letter
        camgunz 3y ago
        I think I've lost the plot here. Let's play it back: 1. Me: Macs also have the same "Fn on the far left" layout as ThinkPads and Macs/ThinkPads have basically won in the tech space. 2. You: Macs have a better design here - they use the more convenient thumb for Ctrl functions, so fn on the far left is not relevant 3. Me: Nah in the terminal where I spend 90% of my time Ctrl is Ctrl. 4. You: Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent 5. Me: If we're saying rebinding is an acceptable solution then what does it matter what order the keys are in? 6. You: The amount of rebinding still differs due to Alt, defaults unfortunately matter even if you change them. Like, sure I guess rebinding 4 keys is more work than rebinding 3. I was just confused (5) because you said that the Mac's design is better (2) but then you seemed to abandon that argument by saying you can just rebind keys (4). Your response at (6) seems irrelevant; why is Alt (a key not on the Mac keyboard; do you mean Option?) germane? > How do you do it on Windows where it's the same combo from the start? Pretty much the same way the Mac does it [0]: let Ctrl-C mean "cancel" and use some other key combo for copy (you guessed it). But, again overall rebinding is an imperfect solution. A lot of things don't know you rebound your keys, there can be weird clashes, etc. [0]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/console/ctrl-c-and-ctrl-break-signals https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/console/ctrl-c-and...
kristianp 3y ago
Most people here on HN would agree with you, but for someone who spent many years touch typing on a PC desktop keyboard where the Ctrl key is at the far left, it is a welcome adjustment. The little finger automatically goes to the far left when you've been trained on ye-olde keyboards.
- camgunz 3y ago
  > Most people here on HN would agree with you, but for someone who spent many years touch typing on a PC desktop keyboard where the Ctrl key is at the far left, it is a welcome adjustment. For sure yeah; I failed to adjust the other way. I'm so bad I bought one of those ThinkPad USB keyboards for home and used a Magic Keyboard at work.

eviks 3y ago

Macs have a better design here - they use the more convenient thumb for Ctrl functions, so fn on the far left is not relevant But on a PC far left key is easier to press with a palm than the much less useful fn, so it's a welcome improvement in the default layout

kristianp 3y ago
> they use the more convenient thumb for Ctrl functions It's subjective. > palm Did you mean to say you're pressing a button with your palm?
- eviks 3y ago
  Rsi / emacs pinkies are objective maladies, and for (shift) control palm presses are one of the solutions
camgunz 3y ago
Nah in the terminal where I spend 90% of my time Ctrl is Ctrl.
- eviks 3y ago
  Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent
  - camgunz 3y ago
    > Macs have a better design here > Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent If we're saying rebinding is an acceptable solution then what does it matter what order the keys are in? You also can't really rebind the Fn/Ctrl/Option/Cmd to do what you're suggesting in macOS. I learned this using a ThinkPad USB keyboard on a Mac trying to get it to use Ctrl for the things you're used to on a non-Mac keyboard: there are a lot of clashes. For instance if you map Cmd-C -> Ctrl-C how do you copy things (or cancel things) in a terminal? I ended up binding the ThinkPad's keys to be what they would be on the Mac's keyboard.
    - eviks 3y ago
      > does it matter what order the keys are in? The amount of rebinding still differs due to Alt, defaults unfortunately matter even if you change them. > if you map Cmd-C -> Ctrl-C how do you copy things How do you do it on Windows where it's the same combo from the start? But also: by making it conditional on selection or simply using another letter
      - camgunz 3y ago
        I think I've lost the plot here. Let's play it back: 1. Me: Macs also have the same "Fn on the far left" layout as ThinkPads and Macs/ThinkPads have basically won in the tech space. 2. You: Macs have a better design here - they use the more convenient thumb for Ctrl functions, so fn on the far left is not relevant 3. Me: Nah in the terminal where I spend 90% of my time Ctrl is Ctrl. 4. You: Unless you rebind it to make your experience 100% consistent 5. Me: If we're saying rebinding is an acceptable solution then what does it matter what order the keys are in? 6. You: The amount of rebinding still differs due to Alt, defaults unfortunately matter even if you change them. Like, sure I guess rebinding 4 keys is more work than rebinding 3. I was just confused (5) because you said that the Mac's design is better (2) but then you seemed to abandon that argument by saying you can just rebind keys (4). Your response at (6) seems irrelevant; why is Alt (a key not on the Mac keyboard; do you mean Option?) germane? > How do you do it on Windows where it's the same combo from the start? Pretty much the same way the Mac does it [0]: let Ctrl-C mean "cancel" and use some other key combo for copy (you guessed it). But, again overall rebinding is an imperfect solution. A lot of things don't know you rebound your keys, there can be weird clashes, etc. [0]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/console/ctrl-c-and-ctrl-break-signals https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/console/ctrl-c-and...

kristianp 3y ago

Most people here on HN would agree with you, but for someone who spent many years touch typing on a PC desktop keyboard where the Ctrl key is at the far left, it is a welcome adjustment. The little finger automatically goes to the far left when you've been trained on ye-olde keyboards.

camgunz 3y ago
> Most people here on HN would agree with you, but for someone who spent many years touch typing on a PC desktop keyboard where the Ctrl key is at the far left, it is a welcome adjustment. For sure yeah; I failed to adjust the other way. I'm so bad I bought one of those ThinkPad USB keyboards for home and used a Magic Keyboard at work.